View Poll Results: Nationalize Schools?

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Thread: Nationalizing the Education System

  1. #401
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by phishfi View Post
    My problem with you is your gross misinterpretation of our country's founding document, even after countless pieces of evidence from the people who wrote the document themselves. Even the supreme court has ruled that the constitution is to be read and interpreted as it would have been interpreted at it's creation. So when we look at this, we have to look at it in the scope of the founders' intent. The founders' intent was to create a limited set of duties that the states all agreed on to be conducted for them, and for everything else to be handled by each individual state... not for any duties the public wants to be lumped into "general welfare" and handled by the federal government.
    That's bull. The Amendments certainly aren't interpreted that way, and that's a fact. The 14th has been bastardized well beyond it's intent as have many other Amendments, including (IMO) the 2nd, though I have NO problem with it's current interpretation.

    But then again, I believe we should look at the contract that was actually signed, not the laments and opinions of the writers. I'm pretty sure that's the way all contracts work in this country. The intent of the writer doesn't mean squat in court, only the final, signed document itself - which is as it should be.
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 05-19-13 at 12:48 PM.
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  2. #402
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    If you turn your same reasoning to the 2nd Amendment then gun owners should have to belong to a "well regulated militia", which is shear poppycock. I mean, according to you - if the founders meant otherwise they would have used "and" in stead of a comma.
    Hahaha, this is hilarious. They stated multiple times that the second amendment referred only to federal intervention. The justification clause doesn't necessitate a militia in order to have guns, hence it saying right of the people, instead of the right of the militia... such a terrible argument.

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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    If you turn your same reasoning to the 2nd Amendment then gun owners should have to belong to a "well regulated militia", which is shear poppycock. I mean, according to you - if the founders meant otherwise they would have used "and" in stead of a comma.
    So in your opinion, the clause we are discussing should be interpreted as, "congress has the power to lay and collect taxes, and congress has the power to provide for the common defense and general welfare of the united states?" Is this your stance?

  4. #404
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by phishfi View Post
    Hahaha, this is hilarious. They stated multiple times that the second amendment referred only to federal intervention. The justification clause doesn't necessitate a militia in order to have guns, hence it saying right of the people, instead of the right of the militia... such a terrible argument.
    Oh, I know the argument very well. The problem is, it doesn't jive with what's written as Federalist seems to want it interpreted. Don't blame me for pointing out the obvious conclusion from someone else's standards of belief. If you've got a beef, take it up with Federalist, not me.
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  5. #405
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    Oh, I know the argument very well. The problem is, it doesn't jive with what's written as Federalist seems to want it interpreted. Don't blame me for pointing out the obvious conclusion from someone else's standards of belief. If you've got a beef, take it up with Federalist.
    Please don't put words in my mouth.

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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by Federalist View Post
    No, as I just explained, that particlular language we are discussing ONLY gives congress the power to collect taxes. It grants no other power. The other powers of congress are listed in following clauses.
    You agree that Congress can levy and collect taxes.
    You agree that education is part of the general welfare of the USA.
    The Constitution gives Congress the power to act for and in the general welfare.

    So thus, taxes to pay for education is perfectly constitutional. No other reasonable interpretation would make any sense given those two realities.
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  7. #407
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by phishfi View Post
    My problem with you is your gross misinterpretation of our country's founding document, even after countless pieces of evidence from the people who wrote the document themselves. Even the supreme court has ruled that the constitution is to be read and interpreted as it would have been interpreted at it's creation. So when we look at this, we have to look at it in the scope of the founders' intent. The founders' intent was to create a limited set of duties that the states all agreed on to be conducted for them, and for everything else to be handled by each individual state... not for any duties the public wants to be lumped into "general welfare" and handled by the federal government.
    It says what it says. The opinion of an individual is irrelevant.
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  8. #408
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by Federalist View Post
    So in your opinion, the clause we are discussing should be interpreted as, "congress has the power to lay and collect taxes, and congress has the power to provide for the common defense and general welfare of the united states?" Is this your stance?
    My interpretation is simple:

    "... to lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to ... provide for the ... general Welfare of the United States;" Now, what "provide for the ... general Welfare of the United States" means might be open to interpretation but little else is.
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  9. #409
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by Federalist View Post
    Please don't put words in my mouth.
    I didn't put any words in your mouth. You presented an argument which dictated a certain rule be followed in order to support your argument. All I did was take that same rule and apply it to another area of the Constitution. I mean, if the rule should be applied to one part then it should be applied to all parts. Otherwise, it's just crap.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

  10. #410
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    You agree that Congress can levy and collect taxes.
    You agree that education is part of the general welfare of the USA.
    The Constitution gives Congress the power to act for and in the general welfare.
    There is you mistake. Congress has no grant of power to provide for the general welfare. Per the relevant language, congress has a grant of power to collect taxes. That is all.

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