View Poll Results: Nationalize Schools?

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    16 16.84%
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    70 73.68%
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Thread: Nationalizing the Education System

  1. #381
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    :
    Teachers should know their subject material.
    First, no person in a field as large as history has a fingertip command of every single fact in that field and that would include all the greats including Arthur Schlesinger. There is no shame in that and it means nothing in terms of a persons over all knowledge and understanding of history.

    Second, your statement was clear

    ALL THE EXCESS FOOD

    ALL


    You do know the meaning of the word ALL right?
    sorry but the event as you described it NEVER happened. It was a hyperbolic over the top ridiculous gross exaggeration which never happened in reality. But then you blamed me for not recognizing an event which never happened and for some reason - you still continue to beat that dead horse after your own intellectual fraud was exposed.
    Last edited by haymarket; 05-19-13 at 08:25 AM.
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  2. #382
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by Federalist View Post
    Congress has the power to tax, to borrow money, to regulate certain commerce, and several other powers. It does not have the power to operate schools.
    I took the part of the Constitution THAT YOU QUOTED. Not me - you.

    So you do not consider the education of children as part of the welfare of the USA?
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    I took the part of the Constitution THAT YOU QUOTED. Not me - you.
    Well then you didn't read it very carefully. Try again:

    The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
    There power being granted is the power to tax. Congress shall have power to collect taxes to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the united states.

    The power to tax does not equate to the power to operate schools.

    So you do not consider the education of children as part of the welfare of the USA?
    "Socialism, like the ancient ideas from which it springs, confuses the distinction between government and society. As a result of this, every time we object to a thing being done by government, the socialists conclude that we object to its being done at all." – Frédéric Bastiat

    I consider education to be beneficial, but that is not the question we are discussing. We are discussing whether the constitution empowers the federal government to operate schools.

  4. #384
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by Federalist View Post
    Well then you didn't read it very carefully.
    You can reproduce it 55,297 times - it does not change from post to post. Nobody is disputing the words contained in the clause being discussed.

    So you do NOT consider the education of children as part of the welfare of the USA?
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    You can reproduce it 55,297 times - it does not change from post to post. Nobody is disputing the words contained in the clause being discussed.

    So you do NOT consider the education of children as part of the welfare of the USA?
    No, I DO. I just told you that. However the congress currently does not have the power to operate schools.

  6. #386
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by Federalist View Post
    No, I DO. I just told you that. However the congress currently does not have the power to operate schools.
    Great. So education then falls within the general welfare scope.
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    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    First, no person in a field as large as history has a fingertip command of every single fact in that field and that would include all the greats including Arthur Schlesinger. There is no shame in that and it means nothing in terms of a persons over all knowledge and understanding of history.
    I wasn't exactly challenging you to describe the impact of Peggy Eaton. This was one of the chief economic arguments of Progressivism, one of the major portions of the New Deal, and John Locke. They're sort of "big topics".

    but perhaps Locke was cut from Michegan's Government curriculum so that students could spend that period instead writing an article in which they imagine what it must have felt like to be a differently-abled Native American Lesbian when the evil white people came. Given that education majors tend to learn the least in college, if your curriculum didn't force you to repeat it, I suppose you can't really be blamed for not learning; just then continually failing to do so.

    Second, your statement was clear

    ALL THE EXCESS FOOD

    ALL


    You do know the meaning of the word ALL right?
    sorry but the event as you described it NEVER happened. It was a hyperbolic over the top ridiculous gross exaggeration which never happened in reality. But then you blamed me for not recognizing an event which never happened and for some reason - you still continue to beat that dead horse after your own intellectual fraud was exposed.
    yeah. Keep trying to spin your own ignorance.

    "Oh, I only didn't get it because I knew that they had destroyed a lot of excess food, so when you talked about them destroying all that excess food, it sounded so completely different that nobody could ever have drawn that link, ever, except someone who had ever had to actually think.


  8. #388
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Great. So education then falls within the general welfare scope.
    The clause to which you refer does not grant any power. The power being granted is the power to tax.

    The power to tax does not equate to the power to operate schools.

  9. #389
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Great. So education then falls within the general welfare scope.


    Please. Start reading history.

    Quote Originally Posted by James Maddson
    ...Consider for a moment the immeasurable difference between the Constitution limited in its powers to the enumerated objects, and expounded as it would be by the import claimed for the phraseology in question. The difference is equivalent to two Constitutions, of characters essentially contrasted with each other--the one possessing powers confined to certain specified cases, the other extended to all cases whatsoever; for what is the case that would not be embraced by a general power to raise money, a power to provide for the general welfare, and a power to pass all laws necessary and proper to carry these powers into execution; all such provisions and laws superseding, at the same time, all local laws and constitutions at variance with them? Can less be said, with the evidence before us furnished by the journal of the Convention itself, than that it is impossible that such a Constitution as the latter would have been recommended to the States by all the members of that body whose names were subscribed to the instrument?

    Passing from this view of the sense in which the terms common defence and general welfare were used by the framers of the Constitution, let us look for that in which they must have been understood by the Convention, or, rather, by the people, who, through their Conventions, accepted and ratified it. And here the evidence is, if possible, still more irresistible, that the terms could not have been regarded as giving a scope to Federal legislation infinitely more objectionable than any of the specified powers which produced such strenuous opposition, and calls for amendments which might be safeguards against the dangers apprehended from them...
    Last edited by cpwill; 05-19-13 at 09:01 AM.

  10. #390
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    James Madison, the Father of the Constitution, and Thomas Jefferson, the writer of the Declaration of Independence, wrote extensively about what is meant by the term "general welfare" in the Constitution. Their views reflect the original intent of the Constitution, which is its only meaning until it is amended otherwise. Madison was very specific in regards to Art.1 Sec. 8 and the words "general welfare". He said:

    The following is a selection of additional quotes by Madison and Jefferson on "general welfare" and the Constitution:

    "With respect to the two words 'general welfare', I have always regarded them as qualified by the detail of powers connected with them. To take them in a literal and unlimited sense would be a metamorphosis of the Constitution into a character which there is a host of proofs was not contemplated by its creators." James Madison in a letter to James Robertson

    "If Congress can employ money indefinitely to the general welfare, and are the sole and supreme judges of the general welfare, they may take the care of religion into their Own hands; they may a point teachers in every state, county, and parish, and pay them out of their public treasury; they may take into their own hands the education of children, establishing in like manner schools throughout the Union; they may assume the provision for the poor; they may undertake the regulation of all roads other than post-roads; in short, every thing, from the highest object of state legislation down to the most minute object of police, would be thrown under the power of Congress; for every object I have mentioned would admit of the application of money, and might be called, if Congress pleased, provisions for the general welfare." James Madison

    "Congress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but only those specifically enumerated." Thomas Jefferson

    "To take from one, because it is thought his own industry and that of his fathers has acquired too much, in order to spare to others, who, or whose fathers, have not exercised equal industry and skill, is to violate arbitrarily the first principle of association, the guarantee to everyone the free exercise of his industry and the fruits acquired by it." Thomas Jefferson, letter to Joseph Milligan, April 6, 1816

    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them." Thomas Jefferson

    "I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents." James Madison, 4 Annals of Congress 179, 1794

    "[T]he government of the United States is a definite government, confined to specified objects. It is not like the state governments, whose powers are more general. Charity is no part of the legislative duty of the government." James Madison


    The Framers of the Constitution explicitly stated that charity is no duty or power of the federal government. They were not against charity, at the private or state government level, but they understood that if the federal government is given the power to do anything in the name of charity, it will inevitably use charity as an excuse to expand its own size and power, and the power and liberty of the states and of the people will be diminished and eventually destroyed. We are far down that path today. It would be good on this Constitution Day for Liberals and Conservatives alike to consider the above words and wisdom of our Founding Fathers and re-evaluate their views on the proper role and power of the federal government.
    Last edited by Master PO; 05-19-13 at 09:21 AM.

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