View Poll Results: Nationalize Schools?

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    16 16.84%
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    70 73.68%
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Thread: Nationalizing the Education System

  1. #371
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    When most of America's view of education is through the lens of the entire nation, you're going to be interested in gauging how the entire country performs (typically against other nations). When you have been concerned about the status of public education since the early 1980s, you'll be convinced that education is in a downfall, regardless of the limitations of such a view. As a result you want simple, easy to understand measurements that, on the surface, seem to measure exactly what you want without complications involved in the interpretation of said measurement. The easiest way to accomplish that task is to promote standardized tests, and to emphasize gains in test proficiency. This would have a side effect of "teaching to the test," because that's what you mostly want.

    Despite the protests of teaching to the test, I see few substantive alternatives to America's largely exaggerated fear of falling behind nationally. Hell, not even the libertarians are able to undermine this philosophy, because they are still framing everything nationally, nor are they promoting alternate means of assessment, despite their statements to the contrary.
    So basically what you're saying is we're putting national pride over the students need to actually learn something useful in the real world.. Sounds about right. I mean, after all, figuring out how many apples little timmy has after picking 5 and eating 2 is so much more important that learning about career options, college options, debt, taxes, and other things that come directly after high school when these kids go out into the real world. Because real life doesn't kick you in the nuts or anything when you have no idea what the **** you're doing at first.
    "Sometimes we must look beyond what we want to do what's best."

  2. #372
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    every time you attempt to bring up this red herring I have told you the same thing: you presented this event in history in such a biased and skewed way that it was unrecognizable from the way you described it.

    It does not matter what Jefferson said about judicial review. it is irrelevant and has no effect or impact on the result of Marbury v. Madison and the power assumed by the Court.
    I said that Roosevelt destroyed food. Your response made it clear you ha no idea what I was talking about. And it continues to be funny especially in light of the fact that apparently you also did not know who was sovereign under the American form of government.

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    England was a foreign country thousands of miles away ruling colonies in their empire. The USA is our own nation.

    There is a huge and significant difference.


    English Common Law forms much of the basis of American Law and is held to be part of our binding legal tradition, oh Haymarket who "taught" government.



    maybe you should quit this conversation while you're behind.

  3. #373
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by Federalist View Post
    No it's not a nation. It's a union of sovereign states.
    I am sorry that I do not get that comment as I do not speak Farrightwingese.

    Why is it that when your statements seem to come from some very unusual value system that has no actual resemblence to real world reality I google what you claim and find out it comes from far right libertarian sources?

    The United States Is Not a Nation! by Brion McClanahan

    The United States Is Not a Nation!

    by Brion McClanahan


    I have often required my students on the first day or two of class to use the Oxford English Dictionary and define the following words: nation and state. Most do not follow my directions and submit a modern Webster’s or online distortion of the word, and those who use the Oxford often fail to provide the etymology of either word. I can’t fault them for that, because they have probably been taught since first grade in the public "school" system to submit the first definition they find. Thus, the common results of the activity are similar to the following:

    Nation – noun: a large body of people, associated with a particular territory, that is sufficiently conscious of its unity to seek or to possess a government peculiarly its own. (from dictionary.com)

    State – noun: the territory, or one of the territories, of a government. (from dictionary.com)

    How profound, statist…and completely absurd! If both are true, than the United States should simply be the "United State." A state is simply a "territory…of a government"? A nation is simply a large body of people that occupy a territory? That would be news to the founding generation. Of course, a careful reading of the history of both words could correct this mess and place the Union of the States within its proper historical context.
    And in that gobbledeygook we get a double bonus no less! Not only do we get the silly statement that the USA is NOT A NATION - right in the title no less - but we also get the normal libertarian accusatory pointed finger invoking their ultimate insult at any non believer labeling them the hated name of STATIST.


    Such nonsense may indeed be part of the ethos of far right libertarianism - at least among the devotees and those who faithfully follow the marching orders of Lew Rockwell and the von Mises Institute but it is strictly Mad Hatter Alice In Wonderland gibberish for everyone else.
    Last edited by haymarket; 05-19-13 at 08:16 AM.
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  4. #374
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    I said that Roosevelt destroyed food. Your response made it clear you ha no idea what I was talking about. And it continues to be funny especially in light of the fact that apparently you also did not know who was sovereign under the American form of government.


    Your statement is false as you prevented a skewed and biased outlook on FDR which was unrecognizable compared to reality.

    The sovereign statement is completely misinterpreted by you as I was clearly talking about the power of the Supreme Court regarding judicial review.

    In both cases you attempt to make a mountain out of a molehill.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  5. #375
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by phishfi View Post
    Then explain how 19 States have citizens smoking pot right now, with DC following suit, in direct conflicting with the federal government.

    Explain how the northern States' refusal to abide by the fugitive slave act ended up being so effective that the federal government now recognizes slavery as a gross infraction on individual rights.
    The key words in your sentence being RIGHT NOW - a clear admission that this is a controversy in which we are in the middle of and is far from decided.

    I have absolutely what you mean by your question about slavery as it is rather convoluted, pointless and is completely irrelevant with the reality that nullification was never legally successful.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  6. #376
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by Federalist View Post
    No. The constitution says that congress may lay and collect taxes in order to provide welfare of the united states. Read it again:



    To lay and collect taxes to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the united states. So congress has a limited power to tax. This does not translate into a power to operate schools.
    You do not consider education of children to be an important of the welfare of the United States of America?
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  7. #377
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    I am sorry that I do not get that comment as I do not speak Farrightwingese.
    You don't understand the difference between a nation and a union of sovereign states? That explains a lot.

  8. #378
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Your statement is false as you prevented a skewed and biased outlook on FDR which was unrecognizable compared to reality.
    well that's typical of our public education system. describe historical reality as anything other than one in which FDR did wonderful things an they find it unrecognizable.

    for those of you who are curious:

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill
    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket
    And what is this about the government gathering up the food and destroying it in the 1930's?
    yeah. during the middle of the Great Depression, FDR's solution was to round up all the 'excess' food and destroy it. we still do it today . ahh... old programs never die, they just slowly increase their budgets...

    FDR promoted higher food prices by paying farmers to plow under some 10 million acres of crops and slaughter and discard some six million farm animals. The food destruction program mainly benefited big farmers, since they had more food to destroy than small farmers. This policy and subsequent programs to pay farmers for not producing victimized the 100 million Americans who were consumers...
    The sovereign statement is completely misinterpreted by you as I was clearly talking about the power of the Supreme Court regarding judicial review
    You asked who should be the arbiter, and the reply was that the final arbiter should be the sovereign. You then asked who the sovereign was.

    In both cases you attempt to make a mountain out of a molehill.
    Teachers should know their subject material.

  9. #379
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    You do not consider education of children to be an important of the welfare of the United States of America?
    It's incredibly important. Which is why we want to make sure that the Federal government doesn't screw it all up.

  10. #380
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    You do not consider education of children to be an important of the welfare of the United States of America?
    Congress has the power to tax, to borrow money, to regulate certain commerce, and several other powers. It does not have the power to operate schools.

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