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Thread: Nationalizing the Education System

  1. #341
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by phishfi View Post
    The post you linked were cases where the people exercised their sovereignty in contradiction to the SC. In dredd Scott v Sanford the SC ruled that blacks weren't allowed practically any rights and that the northern states were required to return escaped slaves to their owners. Instead, those states nullified that ruling. I've already posted this whole thing before, but you don't seem to read everything people post. The southern states actually tried to suceed because the federal government was unable to enforce the ruling made by the SC (which can be found in the list of reasons why south Carolina was leaving the union)... there! Case given...
    Treason and criminality are nothing new. The Texas v. White case and the 14th Amendment decided that no such right existed.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_v._White

    http://www.uakron.edu/dotAsset/f162e...1c152ce05f.pdf

    When did a state legally nullify the Dred Scott ruling causing the SC ruling to have no standing? The only way this can be done is by amending the US Constitution as was done after the Civil War. And that procedure is in the hands of the Congress and legislatures of the states. Until that was done it did not matter what state felt about Dred Scot.
    Last edited by haymarket; 05-18-13 at 07:05 AM.
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Treason and criminality are nothing new. The Texas v. White case and the 14th Amendment decided that no such right existed.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_v._White

    http://www.uakron.edu/dotAsset/f162e...1c152ce05f.pdf

    When did a state legally nullify the Dred Scott ruling causing the SC ruling to have no standing? The only way this can be done is by amending the US Constitution as was done after the Civil War. And that procedure is in the hands of the Congress and legislatures of the states. Until that was done it did not matter what state felt about Dred Scot.
    Ok, where's the camera?! I must be getting punk'd. The northern states nullified the fugitive slaves act. 19 states so far have nullified marijuana laws. Many states nullified prohibition.

    The states hold sovereignty over the federal government, not the other way around. Therefore, The states have every right to do what they want, provided it doesn't conflict with the enumerated powers that the states agreed to give to the feds.

    And if your argument is that the federal's government's laws are the "supreme law of the land" then you misunderstand the constitution completely: the clause only applies to the laws necessary and proper to the execution of those enumerated duties that the federal government exists to conduct.

    I hope you taught something other than American history or government.

    The 14th amendment has nothing to do with nullification! The southern states seceded, because the northern states used nullification, not the other way around. You can't honestly believe that everything in this country is made to be decided by 5 people, and the rest of the country just has to live with it, right?
    Last edited by phishfi; 05-18-13 at 08:39 AM.

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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by phishfi View Post
    Ok, where's the camera?! I must be getting punk'd. The northern states nullified the fugitive slaves act. 19 states so far have nullified marijuana laws. Many states nullified prohibition.

    You confuse quixotic public relations efforts to do so with the reality of actually doing so and triumphing.

    for each of these allegations and claims, please give us verifiable evidence and details showing us how the decision of the SC or Congress was effectively and legally nullified in these cases.

    lets see the verifiable evidence. Not attempts. Not standing in the school house door. Not grandstanding. Not catering to the local crowd when it actually was an act of impotence.

    Show us were in these cases of yours, the state was successfully able to legally override a SC decision.
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    You confuse quixotic public relations efforts to do so with the reality of actually doing so and triumphing.

    for each of these allegations and claims, please give us verifiable evidence and details showing us how the decision of the SC or Congress was effectively and legally nullified in these cases.

    lets see the verifiable evidence. Not attempts. Not standing in the school house door. Not grandstanding. Not catering to the local crowd when it actually was an act of impotence.

    Show us were in these cases of yours, the state was successfully able to legally override a SC decision.
    Ok. South Carolina submitted the Declaration of the Immediate Causes Which Induce and Justify the Secession of South Carolina from the Federal Union, in which the specific issue stated was the refusal of some states to enforce the Fugitive Slave Act and clauses in the US Constitution protecting slavery. So, some states had effectively nullified the fugitive slave act.

    Earlier, south Carolina also nullified a federal tariff which was dramatically hurting their state. And like I've pointed out 3 or 4 times now, a number of states have begun nullifying federal marijuana laws and gun laws... Madison, the father of the constitution, and Jefferson both advocated nullification as the overall power the states have to fight off federal usurpations of power...

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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by phishfi View Post
    Ok. South Carolina submitted the Declaration of the Immediate Causes Which Induce and Justify the Secession of South Carolina from the Federal Union, in which the specific issue stated was the refusal of some states to enforce the Fugitive Slave Act and clauses in the US Constitution protecting slavery. So, some states had effectively nullified the fugitive slave act.

    Earlier, south Carolina also nullified a federal tariff which was dramatically hurting their state. And like I've pointed out 3 or 4 times now, a number of states have begun nullifying federal marijuana laws and gun laws... Madison, the father of the constitution, and Jefferson both advocated nullification as the overall power the states have to fight off federal usurpations of power...
    uh - no. States attempted to secede from the union in a treasonous action to destroy the United States of America. It was stopped. Citing the opinion of fellow travelers does not provide any verifiable evidence of your claim. It only shows the paranoia that was rampant in the South over the entire issue which was far from decided in any legal sense. And that is what we are debating.

    I could not care less what some individuals advocated as that is NOT the discussion. The challenge was a simple one: if you and others maintain that the United States Supreme Court is NOT the body empowered with judicial review and there is something higher, simply cite the cases with verifiable evidence.

    the marijuana laws are a story in mid telling and is not anywhere near resolved or decided with any judicial finality. When it is, be sure to come back and report on it.

    So far, you have failed to cite any verifiable evidence supporting your claims of historical fact that there is a higher authority than the US Supreme Court in determining the constitutionality of a law.
    Last edited by haymarket; 05-18-13 at 09:39 AM.
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    uh - no. States attempted to secede from the union in a treasonous action to destroy the United States of America. It was stopped. Citing the opinion of fellow travelers does not provide any verifiable evidence of your claim. It only shows the paranoia that was rampant in the South over the entire issue which was far from decided in any legal sense. And that is what we are debating.

    I could not care less what some individuals advocated as that is NOT the discussion. The challenge was a simple one: if you and others maintain that the United States Supreme Court is NOT the body empowered with judicial review and there is something higher, simply cite the cases with verifiable evidence.

    the marijuana laws are a story in mid telling and is not anywhere near resolved or decided with any judicial finality. When it is, be sure to come back and report on it.

    So far, you have failed to cite any verifiable evidence supporting your claims of historical fact that there is a higher authority than the US Supreme Court in determining the constitutionality of a law.
    You're behind comprehending this, apparently. I gave you a specific case, the fugitive slave act, where states (almost every state in the north) nullified a federal law, and you refuse to see it. I'm saying that the nullification by the good people in the north, was so effective at nullifying federal law that it made the confederacy secede.

    How isn't that one specific case when the states threw out a giving by the supreme court and showed their sovereignty absolutely?

  7. #347
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    And you have never shown me to be ignorant of anything in American history other than your own perverted and intentionally biased attempts to pretend that one thing is really a different thing and then you jump all over it when I fail to recognize it through the same biased lenses that you seem to wear.
    Thus far (off the top of my head) you were unaware until educated that FDR's solution to hunger in America was to destroy large amounts of food, that the progressive era claimed that competition was "wasteful", and you didn't know who was sovereign in the American system of government. And, again, for someone who taught government, that is sort of a biggie.

    I make no claim about what the Supreme Court had aright to do or not right to do. What I do is acknowledge historical reality. The SC reached out and grabbed.... took..... siezed .... the power of judicial review which was clearly not specified in the actual US Constitution in the Marbury v. Madison case. Because their ruling served the temporary interests of the other two branches, they failed to challenge what the Court did and the result was what it was.
    Judicial Review =/= Judicial Supremacy, which is a 20th Century addition.

    We were discussing who had the power to make a determination of what the Constitution would permit and not permit in terms of law. The people being sovereign has nothing to do with the power of judicial review and it is irrelevant and should never have been brought out of the barn and hung up as a strawman.
    Actually no, the question was who had sovereignty. In the question of review of law, it applies directly:

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Jefferson
    "But the Chief Justice says, 'There must be an ultimate arbiter somewhere.' True, there must; but does that prove it is either party? The ultimate arbiter is the people of the Union, assembled by their deputies in convention, at the call of Congress or of two-thirds of the States. Let them decide to which they mean to give an authority claimed by two of their organs. And it has been the peculiar wisdom and felicity of our Constitution, to have provided this peaceable appeal, where that of other nations is at once to force."

  8. #348
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by phishfi View Post
    Ok. South Carolina submitted the Declaration of the Immediate Causes Which Induce and Justify the Secession of South Carolina from the Federal Union, in which the specific issue stated was the refusal of some states to enforce the Fugitive Slave Act and clauses in the US Constitution protecting slavery. So, some states had effectively nullified the fugitive slave act.

    Earlier, south Carolina also nullified a federal tariff which was dramatically hurting their state. And like I've pointed out 3 or 4 times now, a number of states have begun nullifying federal marijuana laws and gun laws... Madison, the father of the constitution, and Jefferson both advocated nullification as the overall power the states have to fight off federal usurpations of power...
    The Fed marijuana and gun laws are not "nullified" by state law. States can choose to ignore those Fed laws but I have as yet to see a state that has stopped a Federal agent, ATF, FBI, or US Marshal, from enforcing Federal laws inside their state. My state has a (theoretical) law in place that would charge a person with a misdemeanor for enforcing or abiding by certain Fed gun laws but that has yet to be put to the test and I don't believe it ever will be.
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 05-18-13 at 10:54 AM.
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    The Fed marijuana and gun laws are not "nullified" by state law. States can choose to ignore those Fed laws but I have as yet to see a state that has stopped a Federal agent, ATF, FBI, or US Marshal, from enforcing Federal laws inside their state. My state has a (theoretical) law in place that would charge a person with a misdemeanor for enforcing or abiding by certain Fed gun laws but that has yet to be put to the test and I don't believe it ever will be.
    It's still nullification. There are actually three forms of nullification. The gun nullifications are in the form that's considered the most active, but it's still refusal to enforce a federal (unconstitutional) law

  10. #350
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by phishfi View Post
    It's still nullification. There are actually three forms of nullification. The gun nullifications are in the form that's considered the most active, but it's still refusal to enforce a federal (unconstitutional) law
    A refusal to enforce federal law is not what I call nullification. Making it illegal to enforce federal law within a state is what I call nullification - and it'll never fly. Like I said, Missouri has such a law but I have as yet to see anyone thrown in jail or even fined for enforcing federal law.
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