View Poll Results: Nationalize Schools?

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Thread: Nationalizing the Education System

  1. #321
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by phishfi View Post
    If anything, it's going to pick a model and stick to it... probably exactly like it is now but with more standards.
    Having a model and standards does not fix the problems we were debating. Every state has standards, yet there are problems to fix. Best to see who's model works the best rather than remove the opportunity for marketplace of ideas.
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoist View Post
    Having a model and standards does not fix the problems we were debating. Every state has standards, yet there are problems to fix. Best to see who's model works the best rather than remove the opportunity for marketplace of ideas.
    My sentiments exactly!

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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    My education Model:

    Create virtual university and voucher degree program in public high schools.


    Back in around 2003 when I I attended BYU, I took an accounting 101 course. I didn't realize it was a 100% virtual course, never even knew they existed. Basically first day went into an auditorium with like maybe 300 students. The professor told everyone to come and pick up a couple of CD's off his desk and handed us a syllabus. That was the last time we saw him or a classroom. Popped the CD in the lab top and you saw just the teacher's floating head on one side of the screen giving lectures, a virtual chalkboard next to him showing video footage to enhance the concepts in the lecture. You could pause it at anytime, rewind and listen over if you missed something, slow down or speed up his speech. He was a very good teacher and entertaining. The second CD was a text book, and it explained the material in a different way so combining the video lectures and textbook worked well. Also there was an online message board where students could discuss things on the lectures, and where you could ask questions to the professor and his student aides. Personally I learned better in this setting than a live class because I could study at my own convenience, I could rewind the lectures and listen to them 2 and 3 times, and I think by filming the lectures, the teacher can edit until they are his best stuff. The potential economic impact of this virtual course hit me. Instead of thousands of universities having thousands of accounting professors you could just use this virtual course. Save millions and millions of dollars and students likely would get a better accounting 101 course as it was extremely well done.

    At about the same time I found the website How stuff Works. Type in pretty much anything in the search engine on the site, say regenerative braking, and it explains in a few pages of text and pics how it works. The idea occurred to me what if there was a website like How Stuff Works but on serious steroids, more like the BYU accounting 101 course I took, even much, much better. If the BYU accounting 101 course, which likely was created by the professor at very little cost was so much better than most live classes, how good could these courses be if an educational company utilizing the best talent in academics, video game industry, graphic design, music, film, etc.

    The third inspiration was Apple. What if you could just download these amazing education/job training aps, for the price of an itune. That is when I thought of the concept of the Virtual University. All this back in 2003/4



    Virtual University
    A person wants to learn a language, go to the virtual university website and download for $1.99 an amazing course from the LDS Missionary Training Center or from Rosetta Stone. Want to do work on a certain model of automobile in your garage, go to the virtual university website and download an app from Chilton for that year and model. It has a virtual garage with a virtual mechanic. You can type in any repair and watch with 3D graphics Mario brother performing the repair showing exactly what parts you take off in what order, what tools are needed, best position to get to that hard to reach hose or nut, etc, etc. Want to change career and become a diesel mechanic, type in the search engine on the virtual university website "diesel mechanic" and download a $1.99 course from Peterbuilt. Think how 3D graphics and 360 degree views of every moving part, course so well designed that mechanics quickly master it. Say you have no mechanical ability, download a $1.99 app in the Virtual University Auto Mechanic for Dummies. Want to learn Egyptian history in a quick fun way, download a $1.99 interactive course that is designed like a video game with Lara Croft of Tomb Raider. Bricklaying, framing, welding, plumbing, Microsoft Office, nursing, firefighter, mountain climbing, physics, electrical engineering...you name it, Virtual University has an amazing app on it.


    The same way you have all kinds of entrepreneurs creating apps for the Apple site, the same would happen for a federal Virtual University website. All entrepreneurs need is the right incentive, the confidence the site will have huge traffic. The government will need to advertise at first, and require the tens of millions on welfare and millions in jail to buy and download apps and improve job skills. If legally possible, you could add further incentive of no taxation on profits from website. Once it gets going though the global traffic will be huge. Maybe the BYU accounting 101 course gets submitted and the Virtual University administration thinks it meets the high standards of the university and it is listed in the site. Maybe within five years it is downloaded 30 million times globally and has 60 million revenue, almost all of it profit. Google university and Apple University could do this also if you prefer a strictly private website. I tend to prefer a federal site that works closely with Apple and Google. It would be at zero cost or even a profit for the U.S. government.




    Second part of my plan to transform k-12. I'll concentrate on the public high school, but many of these concepts would also be implemented in junior high and elementary.

    Voucher Degree Program
    1. Government gets out of running the schools as far as administration, curriculum creating, and teaching. Government's role becomes primarily to fund the schools through vouchers and to take care of facility costs, security, and busing. These vouchers are only for public schools. If you want to take your kids to a private school, you pay your own money or hope they get a scholarship.
    2. every high school will be designed with the following degree programs: 1.Action Rescue 2.Math, Science, Tech, 3.Vocation, 4. Domestic Bliss, 5. Music/Art , 6. Bachelor of Arts. Students will be able to minor and have electives in other degree programs and change majors if they want. Complete freedom to pursue their talents and interests.
    3. The parents of the students in each degree program each year will use the voucher money to hire teachers and an educational company to provide curriculum, software, and support for the degree program. An advantage will be total flexibility. If they hire a bad teacher they can fire them. A great one they can give him or her a raise. Same with the curriculum design/software educational company. If they are not happy with it, they just change companies. If they are happy they may keep it several years.
    4. utilize the virtual university on as many courses as possible. Some classes will be strictly virtual university, where students will sit in the library or school courtyard with simply a labtop or ipad and headphones. Other courses will have a live teacher but utilize the virtual university as an additional resource for the course. Some courses that require live teacher but not much hands on interaction will have very large classes with hundreds of students where the teacher has a projector, is miked, has an internet message board, and has student aides to help with course. Some classes will need to be small student/teacher ratio. A small percent of student body may be more special needs and also need smaller teacher/student ratios or put in other schools that cater more to their needs. Basically there will be a lot of flexibility.

    Some examples to get a better picture of this new very American public high school:

    Let's say hypothetically 100 students in the high school decide out of the six degree programs to major in the Action Rescue program. Since I am shooting for around 70 or 80% reduction in total k-12 costs, let's say the per capita vouchers from the state/local government is $2000/student instead of the national average of over $12,000. So the parents of these 100 students in this degree program have $200,000 for the year to hire teachers, hire an educational company with curriculum package and support, and any other miscellaneous stuff. The parents with input from their kids carefully study a myriad of different companies that will have popped up for each of the six degree programs. There will be a website where they can go on where dozens of companies will have links to their websites with customer reviews. Let's say they choose to hire one for the year that combines elite EMS, Fireman, Coast Guard, ParaRescue, Rock Climbing training. Part of their curriculum is that the students will study virtual app downloads on the their lab tops from elite training schools to visually and mentally learn techniques, and then get hands on training from three well qualified full time trainers that the company will provide, and it integrates training with local first responders. After four years they graduate a full rescue action hero and many choose to enter military, become firemen, EMS, police, etc. Total cost $120,000 for the 3 instructors, $50,000 for curriculum package with software and support, $30,000 miscellaneous. Let's say another 100 students want to join the Vocation program. The parents of these students go on a website with dozens of educational companies that cater to this degree major. This company utilizes virtual courses from the amazing Virtual University to visually and mentally learn a number of broad trades. For example for the first week they may study bricklaying from the virtual university, then for the next six weeks they all get jobs on a construction site getting real world experience in bricklaying. Then they go back to the classroom and for a week study welding with the virtual university. Then they get a job for six weeks on a job site for welding. For the first two years they could do this for several different trades such as framing, electrician, plumbing, etc then the final two years they narrow it down the a trade they want to concentrate on. They earn money, become good at a broad range of skills, and master at least one. The parents of the students that choose the Math/Science/Technology degree vote on a MIT start up.

    That is basically my education model. The teacher's union would love me!

  4. #324
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Is it your claim that the Supreme Court claiming supremacy over the other branches equates to their right to do so? Or perhaps you can explain to me how in the world that excuses the fact that you did not know who was sovereign in the American political system?


    You cheap shots say otherwise. And you have never shown me to be ignorant of anything in American history other than your own perverted and intentionally biased attempts to pretend that one thing is really a different thing and then you jump all over it when I fail to recognize it through the same biased lenses that you seem to wear.

    I make no claim about what the Supreme Court had aright to do or not right to do. What I do is acknowledge historical reality. The SC reached out and grabbed.... took..... siezed .... the power of judicial review which was clearly not specified in the actual US Constitution in the Marbury v. Madison case. Because their ruling served the temporary interests of the other two branches, they failed to challenge what the Court did and the result was what it was.

    We were discussing who had the power to make a determination of what the Constitution would permit and not permit in terms of law. The people being sovereign has nothing to do with the power of judicial review and it is irrelevant and should never have been brought out of the barn and hung up as a strawman.
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by phishfi View Post
    It was a Washington document, if I'm not mistaken. And the topic of the document was not about local control, it simply started by mentioning local control, and there have been PLENTY of cases where a government document has been mistaken before...
    It stated what LOCAL CONTROL was and is in a system of education largely shared in structure by both Washington state and my state of Michigan.
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by phishfi View Post
    8

    I'll name a few: prohibition, marijuana nullification, the few states right now that are nullifying federal gun laws, border states enforcing stronger immigration laws, the northern states nullifying the federal slave laws. It's happened plenty of times in our history, the people are the sovereign, in fact, that's kind of how our government's founding document begins...
    The people are NOT deciding issues of Constitutionally in place of the Supreme Court. Never have done it and never will do it.

    If you believe so, give me a specific case and a specific action by the people.
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoist View Post
    Because bureaucrats in DC know better than teachers and parents on how to educate children. If NCLB taught us anything its that national govt is not about to divert away from the assembly line model.
    And I DO NOT defend the assembly line model and am proudly one of its loudest critics both here and in countless educational meetings and conferences when I taught for thirty-three years and now during my three years in state government.
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    The people are NOT deciding issues of Constitutionally in place of the Supreme Court. Never have done it and never will do it.

    If you believe so, give me a specific case and a specific action by the people.
    Some states seceded from the Union, created the Confederate States of America and went to war against the United States of America. This would, in some cases, lead a person to suspect that, at least once, the "people" chose not to accept the Supreme Court's rulings on Constitutionality. While not successfully, those people certainly placed themselves above the Supreme Court and "decided" issues of Constitutionality.

    Do you really want the "people" to once again decide issues of "Constitutionality"? Seems it can and has been done, but look at the results of doing so.
    Only a fool measures equality by results and not opportunities.

  9. #329
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by DVSentinel View Post
    Some states seceded from the Union, created the Confederate States of America and went to war against the United States of America. This would, in some cases, lead a person to suspect that, at least once, the "people" chose not to accept the Supreme Court's rulings on Constitutionality. While not successfully, those people certainly placed themselves above the Supreme Court and "decided" issues of Constitutionality.

    Do you really want the "people" to once again decide issues of "Constitutionality"? Seems it can and has been done, but look at the results of doing so.
    Oh sure, they can do it, but they've already agreed to follow the laws of the land and to follow the social contract. Nobody says they have to like what the Supreme Court rules, but they have already agreed to live with that ruling, simply by continuing to live here.
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  10. #330
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    And I DO NOT defend the assembly line model
    I know you don't. But I think advocacy of central government control of ed. could lead to unintended consequences.
    "Men did not make the earth ... it is the value of the improvement only, and not the earth itself, that is individual property... Every proprietor owes to the community a ground rent for the land which he holds." -- Thomas Paine, Agrarian Justice
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