View Poll Results: Nationalize Schools?

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Thread: Nationalizing the Education System

  1. #221
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by DVSentinel View Post
    The "assembly line model" has not been around that long. It didn't exist, at least not in the school I went to, at the time I was in school. "Special" education was separated from other school functions. We had skill training in various areas including an auto shop. Our selection of classes ranged from standard to college prep to advanced. At that time, you could also fail and have to repeat the year/classes over and for some rules violation, you could be expelled for the entire year.
    The assembly line model still largely holds up as a framework to understand public education historically and currently. Secondly, special education is still separated from other school functions.



    It was after that time period that lawsuits about unequal education and unequal availability were pursued. Following such lawsuits and some Laws, the "special needs" students were to be allowed in normal classrooms, no matter how disruptive they become. Schools were, for a time, prevented from offering "unequal" education in the form of placing students in advanced and college prep tracks. Even today, locally at least, there is no official distinction between classes. However, all the brighter students seem to end up in Mrs. X's class while the more "normal" or "less bright" students all end up in Mr. Y's class, but on paper at least, they are the same class, just different teachers.
    Not really. There were some issues with placing students in the general education classroom, much of the time it was an exaggeration to the changes that were coming. Most kinks in desegregation were addressed with flexibility of placement and additional educator training & supports.
    Last edited by Fiddytree; 05-15-13 at 04:57 PM.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

  2. #222
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by phishfi View Post
    No, the solution is to get rid of government involvement, because the government doesn't innovate. They don't experiment. They stick with whatever works. Alternatively, a private school system would mean companies giving new software and hardware to schools to test out their systems, or as incentive to get school systems to buy their product. School systems would have their own research to see what ways they could teach better with less money (competition). Businesses will do everything to teach every kid, because they want the business.

    Also, there would be a LOT of non profit school systems, like there are medical facilities. Possibly religious institutions, etc.
    Except that's the problem, schools should stick with whatever works until there is evidence that something else works better. Back when schools taught the 3 R's, you didn't have many kids getting out of high school functionally illiterate. Then, you had the big liberal social experiment when schools taught kids to feel good about themselves, nobody ever failed and everyone got a trophy just for showing up. That has screwed up our country to no end. Had we just stayed with what worked, we wouldn't be in the mess we're in now.
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  3. #223
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    My statement - that we have local control is true as the term is used in this thread discussion.
    The terms used in this thread do not have empty values, to be filled during whatever discussion is being had. The terms have meanings, and you were incorrect.

    The topic is turning over control of education to the Federal Government.
    That very well may be, but your statement that we have 100% decentralized education was false.

    I made it very clear that in my state of Michigan, the state has the constitutional responsibility of education and that is then passed on to smaller communities like cities and towns in over 500 districts across the state. Contrast that with FEDERAL CONTROL of education and that system is indeed LOCAL CONTROL.
    No...it's state control. Your state has graduation requirements. It has content requirements. It has proficiency on standardized test requirements.

    In no way can that be consider local control.

    For you to pretend that it is not is simply a denail of reality.
    Denying your falsehoods are not denying reality. I don't give a rat's rear end about the argument you're having on whether or not we should put more control in the hands of the federal government (though I think it's a terrible idea, for many reasons), but what I do care about is you made an incredibly false statement and because you seem to think admitting you were wrong about anything means you are wrong about everything, you are arguing something you are clearly incorrect about. This isn't even a debate any more. You are wrong. You've been proven wrong, in every way possible.

    Just admit you are wrong, then turn that into your argument that we need more federal control. But as long as you cling to your obviously erroneous argument, it undermines any other argument you make.

    States and local governments want federal dollars and those dollars come attached with strings. Surprise surprise. That does ot equate to destroying the local system already in place.
    Nonsense, because the local schools could not operate without state and federal dollars.

    And the fact you're still trying to claim that state control is equal to local control is so far beyond absurd I don't know why you continue to argue it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Except that's the problem, schools should stick with whatever works until there is evidence that something else works better. Back when schools taught the 3 R's, you didn't have many kids getting out of high school functionally illiterate. Then, you had the big liberal social experiment when schools taught kids to feel good about themselves, nobody ever failed and everyone got a trophy just for showing up. That has screwed up our country to no end. Had we just stayed with what worked, we wouldn't be in the mess we're in now.
    That's such a ridiculous myth, it never ceases to amaze me how many people actually believe it. Quite frankly, your comment is nonsense.

  4. #224
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Serious View Post
    And yet when the parents want a better education for their children they run up against a roadblock of districting and an affective monopoly of government education.
    I don't disagree, but it's still not the schools/admins who are the problem.
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  5. #225
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    I don't disagree, but it's still not the schools/admins who are the problem.
    Yup, it's the school boards which are made up of parents who don't have a clue what they're doing. Today, the Los Angeles school board passed a rule that disruptive students can no longer be suspended. Parents were thrilled. Exactly how are the schools supposed to discipline bad kids now? Who knows.
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  6. #226
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Except that's the problem, schools should stick with whatever works until there is evidence that something else works better. Back when schools taught the 3 R's, you didn't have many kids getting out of high school functionally illiterate. Then, you had the big liberal social experiment when schools taught kids to feel good about themselves, nobody ever failed and everyone got a trophy just for showing up. That has screwed up our country to no end. Had we just stayed with what worked, we wouldn't be in the mess we're in now.
    If the customers (parents) don't like this the way a certain school, they can take their kids elsewhere... That's the beauty of a private system that can't exist in the public system... Someday the exact same argument will be brought up about this universal healthcare, and it'll be just as valid!

  7. #227
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by phishfi View Post
    If the customers (parents) don't like this the way a certain school, they can take their kids elsewhere... That's the beauty of a private system that can't exist in the public system... Someday the exact same argument will be brought up about this universal healthcare, and it'll be just as valid!
    No, there are a lot of really stupid parents who, frankly, have no business being parents, who just don't have a grasp on the purpose of education. Education is about teaching facts to children, not about indoctrinating them, not about selectively teaching ideas that the parents have an emotional attachment to, but in educating the next generation. The idea that you can choose not to have your child taught something that is real because it makes you feel bad is absurd. That's a huge argument against private schools, not for them.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    No, there are a lot of really stupid parents who, frankly, have no business being parents, who just don't have a grasp on the purpose of education. Education is about teaching facts to children, not about indoctrinating them, not about selectively teaching ideas that the parents have an emotional attachment to, but in educating the next generation. The idea that you can choose not to have your child taught something that is real because it makes you feel bad is absurd. That's a huge argument against private schools, not for them.
    No, you have no right, whatsoever, to tell me what I can and cannot teach my child. If you even felt like that, why aren't you arguing against homeschooling as well? What parents teach their kids, or the way they decide to raise their kids (barring abuse) is within their rights and nobody else's business.

  9. #229
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by DVSentinel View Post
    The "assembly line model" has not been around that long. It didn't exist, at least not in the school I went to, at the time I was in school. "Special" education was separated from other school functions. We had skill training in various areas including an auto shop. Our selection of classes ranged from standard to college prep to advanced. At that time, you could also fail and have to repeat the year/classes over and for some rules violation, you could be expelled for the entire year.
    .
    The grade system by age .... the factory assembly line system..... has been with us for well over a century. The number of people held back or retained was relatively small. And even then it was usually limited to a single year so that the age disparity in a class was not severe. My point is that no student should advance in any lesson in any class until they master it. We have NEVER had that system.
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by Slyfox696 View Post
    The terms used in this thread do not have empty values, to be filled during whatever discussion is being had. The terms have meanings, and you were incorrect.

    .
    This thread is about FEDERAL takeover of schools. State responsibility by constitution and town and city districts constitute local control in this discussion.

    Nonsense, because the local schools could not operate without state and federal dollars.
    Again, for the purposes of a discussion about FEDERAL CONTROL OF ALL SCHOOLS a system of state responsibility with local city and town districts is LOCAL CONTROL.

    And the amount of federal money in most districts is relatively small as a total percentage of revenue.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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