View Poll Results: Nationalize Schools?

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  • Yes

    16 16.84%
  • No

    70 73.68%
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    9 9.47%
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Thread: Nationalizing the Education System

  1. #191
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by iacardsfan View Post
    I know that seeing as the Federal Government is not given the power to meddle with education, and that allows the state to assume that power, the Constitution though does state that the Federal Government has the power to do things that will provide for the general welfare. Would you support such a measure to nationalize schools? Feel free to explain your vote!
    Oh good grief no!


    Forget separating Church and State. Education in the form of almost all schools should be separated to the State.

    A republic must be composed of adults that constantly challenge and question it's political leaders and demand justification for their actions.

    Political leaders however, have a natural interest in seeing that the populations is docile, compliant and incurious.

    Almost the best tool conceivable for the political elites of any stripe to achieve that goal is that they should control the education of the young.
    Quod scripsi, scripsi

  2. #192
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoist View Post
    Never heard of NCLB? There is also the higher education bubble our wonderful State is facilitating.



    Point is, increased military spending does not make the citizens safer just as increased State spending on education does not necessarily help the students.




    Decentralization does not necessarily mean going backwards. It can actually be a very progressive idea. Hell, even most Green Party folks are pro-decentralized government.
    I would welcome you demonstrating any evidence of your claims.
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  3. #193
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by Slyfox696 View Post
    You know you're fighting a losing battle, on this right?

    http://www.michigan.gov/documents/md...s_415487_7.pdf

    If you cannot understand you are wrong from this, then you clearly are not interested in facts.

    Local district control and state control is not the same thing, and you cannot change your argument now you've been proven wrong.
    You have proven me wrong on nothing. This discussion is about federal control of education. State input is part of local control and always has been. You are confusing a system in which schools are locally run with state input and federal input and dollars. Such a system is NOT the federal takeover of education that some in this thread seem to view as the boogeyman. To pretend otherwise is simply to be dishonest.

    AYP does NOT negate the reality that local school districts run local schools. Local schools have school boards which are legally empowered to make all sorts of decisions for their district including matters of staffing, curriculum, expenditures, policy, and many many other things. The existence of a measurement of AYP does not negate this.

    AYP is part of the Bush No Child Left Behind. States are now opting out of the program and giving up the federal funds which came with it. Many experts see this as the eventual demise of the law and the program.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1264872.html

    The first 10 states to be declared free from the education law are Colorado, Florida, Georgia, Indiana, Kentucky, Massachusetts, Minnesota, New Jersey, Oklahoma and Tennessee. The only state that applied for the flexibility and did not get it, New Mexico, is working with the administration to get approval.

    Twenty-eight other states, the District of Columbia and Puerto Rico have signaled that they, too, plan to flee the law in favor of their own plans.
    In fact, one could make the case that with the opting out of NCLB, federal input in local schools may be decreasing - NOT increasing. You have presented no 'facts' which negate this.

    If you want to focus on the state destroying local control, there is some evidence of this done on a selective basis. In Michigan we have had state takeover of school districts that have been claimed to be financially challenged. This almost always takes place in districts where racial minority children are the majority and where school boards are dominated by African Americans. We have a law in Michigan which takes away the right of local people to have a government of the people, by the people, and for the people and imposes state selected dictators over those districts. In fact, half of the African Americans in the state live in communities where these state dictators have been imposed while very few white residents are so impacted.

    You want to talk about the imposition of state control - that is the area to look at and then you are on solid ground. Outside of that, Michigan still enjoys local school districts with wide and significant powers running their schools with state input.
    Last edited by haymarket; 05-15-13 at 07:26 AM.
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  4. #194
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    You have proven me wrong on nothing.
    Yes, I have.

    This discussion is about federal control of education.
    No, this discussion is about this statement:

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    We have had 100% decentralized local control education for well over a century now.
    This is false, as I've shown.

    State input is part of local control and always has been.
    State requirements do not suggest local control. I don't even understand how you can possibly think this. When the state says you must have 4 credits of Communication Arts to graduate, that's not local control. When the state says the students must learn X number of facts, that's not local control.

    You are confusing a system in which schools are locally run with state input and federal input and dollars. Such a system is NOT the federal takeover of education that some in this thread seem to view as the boogeyman.
    I'm not saying anything like that. You seem to be confusing me with others.

    What I'm saying is that your statement that we've had 100% decentralized local control for over a century is definitively false. To pretend otherwise is simply dishonest.

    AYP does NOT negate the reality that local school districts run local schools.
    AYP is/was the federal requirements which the state was required to put into a working curriculum and test. AYP is/was used to determine if schools were meeting the federal standards of increasing proficiency.

    Local schools have school boards which are legally empowered to make all sorts of decisions for their district including matters of staffing, curriculum, expenditures, policy, and many many other things.
    Only ONE thing you mentioned there has to do with education. And even that one, curriculum, is not something local school boards have control over, because they are mandated to teach to the standards set forth by the state, as legally required by the federal government.


    AYP is part of the Bush No Child Left Behind. States are now opting out of the program and giving up the federal funds which came with it. Many experts see this as the eventual demise of the law and the program.
    The state can only be granted a waiver if they adopt Common Core standards.

    In fact, one could make the case that with the opting out of NCLB, federal input in local schools may be decreasing - NOT increasing. You have presented no 'facts' which negate this.
    Except that time when I did:
    Quote Originally Posted by Slyfox696 View Post
    The state standards are set to align with the national standards, whether it is the quickly falling by the wayside NCLB or the new Common Core standards, whose adoption was a requirement for the NCLB waiver.
    If you want to focus on the state destroying local control, there is some evidence of this done on a selective basis. In Michigan we have had state takeover of school districts that have been claimed to be financially challenged. This almost always takes place in districts where racial minority children are the majority and where school boards are dominated by African Americans. We have a law in Michigan which takes away the right of local people to have a government of the people, by the people, and for the people and imposes state selected dictators over those districts. In fact, half of the African Americans in the state live in communities where these state dictators have been imposed while very few white residents are so impacted.
    And you do understand the government takeover of the school district was part of the requirements of No Child Left Behind, correct?

    You want to talk about the imposition of state control - that is the area to look at and then you are on solid ground. Outside of that, Michigan still enjoys local school districts with wide and significant powers running their schools with state input.
    But they do not have input into what they teach. They do not have input into how long the school year is. They have limited input into how money can be spent. They don't even have the ability to determine their own graduation requirements.

    Your statement was false. No matter how much you try to dance around it, your statement was false. We do not have 100% decentralized local control of schools.

  5. #195
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    We have had 100% decentralized local control education for well over a century now. The only model they have ever adopted is the factory assembly line system. Centralization has nothing to do with that.
    Oh! I didn't realize you expatriated! Where are you living now? If you were trying to refer to the US, you're so unbelievably laughably wrong about that statement, that I truly worry about you.

  6. #196
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    Oh! I didn't realize you expatriated! Where are you living now? If you were trying to refer to the US, you're so unbelievably laughably wrong about that statement, that I truly worry about you.
    I laughed so hard!

    Isn't the Department of Education there to make sure that the feds don't get involved in state education programs?

  7. #197
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by phishfi View Post
    I laughed so hard!

    Isn't the Department of Education there to make sure that the feds don't get involved in state education programs?
    Genius - true genius, isn't it? That happens to be the true mission of the EPA, as well. Works great.

  8. #198
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    Oh! I didn't realize you expatriated! Where are you living now? If you were trying to refer to the US, you're so unbelievably laughably wrong about that statement, that I truly worry about you.
    Yeah. He has similar problems with American political history, despite apparently having taught it for decades.

    But really, are we surprised that Mr Public Union Himself was apparently not terribly well versed in either his subjects or his profession?

  9. #199
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    At lunch yesterday, someone was telling me about a relative of theirs who will be graduating with an Associates Degree from a community college a few days before they officially graduate from high school. The dual programs that people have come up with are wonderful. The person can finish up their Bachelor's and be out of college before they are even old enough to drink. Nationalizing education would interfere with these types of programs.

  10. #200
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by Slyfox696 View Post
    Your statement was false. No matter how much you try to dance around it, your statement was false. We do not have 100% decentralized local control of schools.
    My statement - that we have local control is true as the term is used in this thread discussion. The topic is turning over control of education to the Federal Government. I made it very clear that in my state of Michigan, the state has the constitutional responsibility of education and that is then passed on to smaller communities like cities and towns in over 500 districts across the state. Contrast that with FEDERAL CONTROL of education and that system is indeed LOCAL CONTROL.

    For you to pretend that it is not is simply a denail of reality.

    States and local governments want federal dollars and those dollars come attached with strings. Surprise surprise. That does ot equate to destroying the local system already in place. To pretend that it does is a gross and hyperbolic exaggeration of the situation.

    I see the state and their constitutional responsibility as part of local control as opposed to the federal government which is the proposition put forth in this thread.
    __________________________________________________ _
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