View Poll Results: Nationalize Schools?

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Thread: Nationalizing the Education System

  1. #161
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    MoSurveyor's Avatar
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    If the "evil corporations" are really out to take advantage of kids for their own profit, I just want to know what money they are supposedly going after.
    Whatever money they can get their hands on. That's their reason for existence.


    You seem to have an odd sense of environment, though, I don't call a leopard or a wolf "evil" - but to each their own, I guess.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

  2. #162
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    I dont' think the federal government should be responsible for education, I think it should be up to the states, and even more decentralized, up to communities, I think they should be public, of caorse, not for profit, they should be public institutions, but the ones who make the decision should be the people in the community who's children go to the school.

  3. #163
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by DVSentinel View Post
    Sure. I would model it after the Japanese school system.
    The genius of the Japanese is their ability to borrow and take from other cultures, change it to fit their own culture, modify it to suit their own needs, and make it work for them. There is no reason why we cannot do the same thing by taking the good, rejecting the negative, and adapting it and modifying it for our own culture.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  4. #164
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    People are encouraged to have independent thoughts. Do you have any to offer? So far, I have seen nothing in the way of anything that approaches an independent thought.

    You say I hated your idea. What "idea" did you have on the topic?

    I am not teaching here. There is not necessarily any relationship or similarity between how I taught young people in the classroom and how I deal with you here. Of course, it causes one to wonder why you would equate the two in the first place?
    I will not support your passive-aggression, you can disregard the points I make but they have been made. You casually want to throw off the paradigms of others while desperately clinging to your own. You can choose to ignore what they are, but I know you are smarter than that.

    To help us understand what kind of teacher you were for 33 years. Give your teaching career a letter grade.

  5. #165
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    A good public system IS directed by "consumers", the parents. In a poor system the "consumers" don't care about the product, so they get almost nothing. Privatization isn't going to change that.
    On the contrary, there are four ways to spend money:

    1. Spend your money on yourself (In this case you have an incentive to seek both quality and cost effectiveness)
    2. Spend your money on someone else (In this case you have an incentive to seek cost effectiveness)
    3. Spend someone else's money on yourself (In this case you have an incentive to seek quality irrespective of cost effectiveness)
    4. Spend someone else's money on someone else. (In this case you have no incentive ti seek either quality or cost effectiveness)

    To shift from a government monopoly model to a more privatized model is to shift from a system dominated by option #4 to a system dominated by options #3 an 1; which is to say, we should see rapid increases in quality along with moderate to low increases in cost effectiveness.

  6. #166
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    See, that's the exact opposite of what I said. Poor neighborhoods with lousy schools should not just sit there and fester. They should be brought up so that they can function. Private schools for a basic education should not be necessary. The public schools should be funded so that they can provide the necessary education, because education is too important to leave to markets to decide how much education is the best for the school's profits.

    Private schools and vouchers are a short term solution to a long term problem.
    actually, as your own home town demonstrates, funding has little to do with quality.

  7. #167
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    cpwill's Avatar
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    How does you taking a cheap shot at me when you have no knowledge or experience with my teaching counter what I have said?
    It doesn't. You confessed your own ignorance to a portion of American political history, and I simply pointed out that you had admitted both your ignorance an the fact that you nonetheless used to teach this material. If a math teacher had professed to not understand Geometry, I might have made the same point.

  8. #168
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    States are part of local control. That is the way many states are set up in their state constitutions. For example, in my state of Michigan, education is a state responsibility but it is administered and run by local school districts of which there are over 500 of them. What they 'dictate' is precious little. When I retired from teaching in 2006 or so the only class that every school in Michigan was mandated to teach and all graduates mandated to pass was Government.

    No child left behind has been and is now a failure. Lots of kids have been left behind and it was never structured to do anything else. It did not establish any real curriculum standards or effect any change in the basic factory assembly line system nor did it impose any sort of national curriculum.

    from the wikipedia entry



    As it has only been in effect for ten years and is already being rolled back, it barely has touched the previous century of entrenched practices.



    Common Core is a step but it is not the solution and is more of a bandaid on cancer. Its better than nothing but hardly the cure.

    from the wikipedia entry



    This is in its infancy and - like many other initiatives - could well see many changes until it goes by the wayside as it is now being done with much of Left Behind goals and programs. We will see how this pans out over time.
    Nothing you said here either changes the fact we do not have local control of education and some of what you say is not true. States dictate plenty to schools. No Child Left Behind set standards, thereby dictating what needs to be taught.

    We do not have local control over education. Now this disagreement between us is fairly irrelevant to the argument you're having about assembly line education, but the fact is you are not correct about who controls education. The states control education. They set standards, they are requiring documentation about teaching materials, they create the content for the standardized test, etc. The state standards are set to align with the national standards, whether it is the quickly falling by the wayside NCLB or the new Common Core standards, whose adoption was a requirement for the NCLB waiver.

    Local districts do not have the control over education.

  9. #169
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    On the contrary, there are four ways to spend money:

    1. Spend your money on yourself (In this case you have an incentive to seek both quality and cost effectiveness)
    2. Spend your money on someone else (In this case you have an incentive to seek cost effectiveness)
    3. Spend someone else's money on yourself (In this case you have an incentive to seek quality irrespective of cost effectiveness)
    4. Spend someone else's money on someone else. (In this case you have no incentive ti seek either quality or cost effectiveness)

    To shift from a government monopoly model to a more privatized model is to shift from a system dominated by option #4 to a system dominated by options #3 an 1; which is to say, we should see rapid increases in quality along with moderate to low increases in cost effectiveness.
    Your initial assumption is incorrect and your scenario is incomplete. The money for schools comes from local real estate tax (here) and any change to those taxes must pass a popular vote - it is not and never has been dictated by our elected representatives. School money is then spent to educate children within the district and the parents of those children monitor the school's quality. In my district the parents care about their children's education so you can't get a much better QC system than that, which is true for most districts in the country. Nor do I expect the parents to pay for the benefits we all get from their child having a good education.

    It's the districts where a large number of parents don't monitor quality that you have issues. Now, if you'd like to petition to open up inner-city schools that are failing due to lack of parental oversight, then I'm good with that. The problem is, of course, that businesses don't want to serve those problem areas because there's little to no profit in it. Big surprise.
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 05-14-13 at 09:48 AM.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

  10. #170
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by AliHajiSheik View Post
    I will not support your passive-aggression, you can disregard the points I make but they have been made. You casually want to throw off the paradigms of others while desperately clinging to your own. You can choose to ignore what they are, but I know you are smarter than that.

    To help us understand what kind of teacher you were for 33 years. Give your teaching career a letter grade.
    Since you brought it up - I will provide the information.

    I will let Newsweek magazine give me the grade as I was a finalist in their national search for Teacher of the Year after being nominated by my school and district administration. I was selected by the State Board of Education to visit Japan and study their system and then come back and educate the educators and legislators of my state. I was rated as a Master Teacher - one of but 20% that can be named as such in my school and trained over a dozen student teachers with that responsibility. I was a chosen delegate and representative to countless educations conferences at a state and national level.

    So the grade has been given.

    If you have a paradigm to offer, please do so. So far I have seen nothing in the way of any suggestions for serious changes in education.

    I advocate the complete abolishment of the grade by grade system based on age of a student. I would replace it with a simple rule - we teach the kids what one plus one is and then give them a test. Those that pass move on - those who do not master the skill keep learning it until they do with other instructors and other methods if need be. Then do that with every single lesson taught in every single subject at every level. Some kids will finish the curriculum in eight or nine years..... some in eleven or twelve..... some may even take fifteen years of more. But so what? In the end we will have a far better educated population.

    Now that is revolutionary change that is built around student achievement.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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