View Poll Results: Nationalize Schools?

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Thread: Nationalizing the Education System

  1. #151
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Welcome to the pro-marriage movement.
    I'm pro marriage. I fully support any consenting adult to marry another consenting adult.
    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    I never suggested getting rid of the public schools. Just that parents who are disappointed with their local public school could use their tax money for their kid's education at another accredited school instead of having to pay for it out of pocket on top of the taxes.
    That's an impossibility. Logistically speaking, your concept is impossible.

    As it stands now the public schools have zero competition, and have zero reason to apply themselves.
    Nonsense. We apply ourselves because we care about education. We care about children. We have far more reason to apply ourselves than to advocate for school advertising.
    Quote Originally Posted by DVSentinel View Post
    You say properly funding education will yield better results. Interesting, then perhaps you can explain, if you really believe more funding is required, why we already spend more per student at the funding level but are not at the top for money spent on a student at the student level?
    Because money doesn't change socio-economic status of the students.

    If we were to remove money from schools, do you think education would improve? If not, then you can definitely see more money = better resources. There are other factors besides money that public education funding cannot solve. However, more money can help minimize those other factors by providing better resources with which to educate.

    A public school system that denies the possibility of the existence of God is no less biased, ridiculous or more useful than schools that might actually fall under your scathing biased ridicule.
    Public schools do not deny the possibility of God, they just do not teach about God. There's a difference.

    As a socialist, you of course pursue the idea of a classless society, but a good and useful education system cannot exist if all students are treated the same and given the same education. You cannot educate someone with a 150 IQ the same way that you educate someone with an 85 IQ and when you add in the students with a 65 IQ, all you end up with is a completely useless, costly education system that meets the needs of no one. Oh, wait, that is what we have now. Could it be because decision makers have chosen, at least in part, to pursue the socialist ideal of classlessness and tries to deny differences and treat everyone the same?
    First of all, you are inappropriately blaming an economic system for what is otherwise a valid point. We should not be educating 150 IQ students the same as 65 IQ students (which, by the way, a 150 IQ student is extremely rare). This is all the better reason to advocate against a more nationalized educational system.

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    We have had 100% decentralized local control education for well over a century now.
    Completely false. States have been dictating standards to schools for decades, and the greatest "reform" in educational history was No Child Left Behind, which established national standards. We're now moving to Common Core standards.

  2. #152
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by Slyfox696 View Post
    If we were to remove money from schools, do you think education would improve? If not, then you can definitely see more money = better resources. There are other factors besides money that public education funding cannot solve. However, more money can help minimize those other factors by providing better resources with which to educate.
    I only partly agree. The answer is not more money, but ending the current bleeding off of the available money. More money does not equate to more or better resources, it equates more money in the pockets of the leaches that are already bleeding the system dry.

    Here in Texas, we have independent school systems. The state provides funding, but doesn't really control how that money is spent. As a result, we ended up with more school administrators than California although we actually have less schools. When economics caused the cutting of budgets, it was not a reduction in Administrators that we saw nor a reduction of the available resources they used up.

    As a nation, we already poor more into education than should be necessary for the absolute best system in the world, the fact that we don't get that result clearly indicates we need to correct problems and more money is not, in anyway, going to fix any problems. The very fact that so many places have independent school districts that spend funds how they want, thus costing us more, would lead me to believe greater centralization and control is necessary.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slyfox696 View Post
    Public schools do not deny the possibility of God, they just do not teach about God. There's a difference.
    I disagree. However, that comment was in answer to someone who suggested that charter schools were inferior because they might teach religious beliefs and was not a comment on what schools really do.


    Quote Originally Posted by Slyfox696 View Post
    First of all, you are inappropriately blaming an economic system for what is otherwise a valid point. We should not be educating 150 IQ students the same as 65 IQ students (which, by the way, a 150 IQ student is extremely rare). This is all the better reason to advocate against a more nationalized educational system.
    Socialism is a socio-economic system, not just an economic one, that theorizes a society without social or economic classes. The reason to blame it is that to remove class (social, economic or anyother), everyone must be the same and receive the same, so under his socialist philosophy, what I described would have to happen. Further, the adoption of socialistic policies in the US has caused, to some extent, just such situations to occur in our classrooms today. The assembly line type education system that others are referring to is the direct result of mandates to provide equal access and equal education to all, regardless of performance or other factors, and thus, the system has equalized in focusing towards all students eventually going on to college.
    Only a fool measures equality by results and not opportunities.

  3. #153
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    Doesn't seem to be working in American healthcare that's for sure.
    Our abomination of a healthcare system is hardly a free market. Surely, you know better then to claim such things.

  4. #154
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by DVSentinel View Post
    Did we really have that? Would you call it that under "busing"? Was our education system a failure for that entire century, or did it start failing somewhere along the way? What was the cause of the failures? From my point of view, we had a very good education system, for some but not all, and somewhere, somehow, we changed it to a poor system for all. What factors really caused that?

    Don't get me wrong, I actually support a national education program, but perhaps for different reasons and in a different manor than you do.
    Your post ignores the reality that many school districts are doing very well for most students. It is not a poor system for all.

    My system had bussing in the late 70's. It was ordered by a local judge and only impacted our system. In that regard it was extremely local .

    You indicate you could support a national education program .... could you provide some details?
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  5. #155
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoist View Post
    As stated before, I believe much of the problem lies in poverty which results in many negative consequences, including bad schools and a push for an 'assembly line system.'



    The federal government has a lot of influence over the education system. But I never said the federal govt operates schools/districts.




    Funny you mention the military. We spend more on military than the next ten top military spenders combined and we still find a way to screw everything up. I don't see it as any different with education. You want to deal with a symptom and throw money at it. I want to deal with the root of the problem (that is, poverty), and still allow parents, teachers, and communities to control their own education.
    What great influence does the federal government have over local education?

    There is a big difference between military spending and education spending. Let me know when the Air Force has to hold a bake sale to buy a new fighter jet. Let me know when the Navy has to have a charity dance to fun a new battleship.

    We will rise or fall as one people in one nation. We cannot afford the luxury of a 19th century system in a 21st century world any longer.
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  6. #156
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by Slyfox696 View Post


    Completely false. States have been dictating standards to schools for decades, and the greatest "reform" in educational history was No Child Left Behind, which established national standards. We're now moving to Common Core standards.
    States are part of local control. That is the way many states are set up in their state constitutions. For example, in my state of Michigan, education is a state responsibility but it is administered and run by local school districts of which there are over 500 of them. What they 'dictate' is precious little. When I retired from teaching in 2006 or so the only class that every school in Michigan was mandated to teach and all graduates mandated to pass was Government.

    No child left behind has been and is now a failure. Lots of kids have been left behind and it was never structured to do anything else. It did not establish any real curriculum standards or effect any change in the basic factory assembly line system nor did it impose any sort of national curriculum.

    from the wikipedia entry

    The Act does not assert a national achievement standard; standards are set by each individual state.
    As it has only been in effect for ten years and is already being rolled back, it barely has touched the previous century of entrenched practices.



    Common Core is a step but it is not the solution and is more of a bandaid on cancer. Its better than nothing but hardly the cure.

    from the wikipedia entry

    Standards were released for mathematics and English language arts on June 2, 2010, with a majority of states adopting the standards in the subsequent months. (See below for current status.) States were given an incentive to adopt the Common Core Standards through the possibility of competitive federal Race to the Top grants. President Obama and Secretary of Education Arne Duncan announced the Race to the Top competitive grants on July 24, 2009, as a motivator for education reform.[10] To be eligible, states had to adopt "internationally benchmarked standards and assessments that prepare students for success in college and the work place."[11] This meant that in order for a state to be eligible for these grants, the states had to adopt the Common Core State Standards or a similar career and college readiness curriculum. The competition for these grants provided a major push for states to adopt the standards.[12] The adoption dates for those states that chose to adopt the Common Core State Standards Initiative are all within the two years following this announcement.[13] The common standards are funded by the governors and state schools chiefs, with additional support from the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, the Charles Stewart Mott Foundation, and others.[14] States are planning to implement this initiative by 2015[15] by basing at least 85% of their state curricula on the Standards.
    Standards [edit]

    In 2010, Standards were released for English language arts and mathematics. Standards have not yet been developed for science or social studies.
    This is in its infancy and - like many other initiatives - could well see many changes until it goes by the wayside as it is now being done with much of Left Behind goals and programs. We will see how this pans out over time.
    Last edited by haymarket; 05-13-13 at 11:54 PM.
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  7. #157
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Your post ignores the reality that many school districts are doing very well for most students. It is not a poor system for all.

    My system had bussing in the late 70's. It was ordered by a local judge and only impacted our system. In that regard it was extremely local .

    You indicate you could support a national education program .... could you provide some details?
    Sure. I would model it after the Japanese school system. Complete with uniforms and all, including restricting the number of manufactures of uniforms and accessories, thus limiting the ability of one student to display financial superiority over another.

    Functional discipline would be pursued in all schools, including but not limited to corporal punishment.

    IQ testing would be done at the earliest possible age and education tracks would be determined by IQ and performance. Ideally, this should be accomplished before social breakdowns adversely affects students, preventing things like bulling etc, especially of the highly gifted students.

    Schools would be divided by intellectual groupings and for small population areas, students in need of one type or school or the other could not only cross district or county lines but state lines if needed to attend the nearest school for their intellectual group. This would allow students that have a particular need to seek it out even if the local school system cannot meet their needs. The goal being to meet the needs of the students and not restrict them because of financial or other factors of school districts.

    Sub-normal would be taught life skills necessary for them to achieve the highest level of function possible.

    Normal groups would be focused towards basic common skills and high-school level would be career/vocational training including the availability of class rooms/skills rooms and allow those seeking apprenticeship in a skill that has such a program to serve at least part of their apprenticeship during high school. Lower skill job training that currently requires an associates/junior college level of education but achievable by normal level intelligence would be available at the high school level. This should help these students to become employable immediately after high school without the need for placing extra financial burdens upon them. The will still need the individual discipline and motivations need to complete a particular training, but would remove only the financial hurdle.

    Normal-Genius levels would have greater training/education in fields of interest and achievable to this groups intellect. This would be the first level of "going on to college" as what now is associates level at colleges and the basics for college would be handled at the high school level. These students would, starting at the Junior High level receive much harder work and advanced intellectual development programs that would be wasted on less intelligent groupings.

    Genius level would be focused towards these individuals progressing to the hardest, most intellectually demanding fields. Physics, Mathematics, etc.

    Since all but the normal level educational programs may have a limited number of participants and could not/may not be supported by the current system layout, it is necessary to allow them to be able cross traditional educational districting as it exist today. Thus, this type of system would have to exist above the state level to allow students to move across state boundaries when necessary. While any student may choose to attend, for career of choice purposes, any lower level school, exempting sub-normal, they should not be forced to just because the existing district is unable to meet their needs. Further, by implementing it at a National level, many redundant and unnecessary levels may be cut out, thus allowing more funding to actually get to the student/teacher level.

    From personal experience, I can tell you that being at near genius or even genius level but stuck in a po-dunk school full of redneck children who mostly would never graduate, much less amount to much more than drunken rednecks themselves, really, really sucks.
    Only a fool measures equality by results and not opportunities.

  8. #158
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    The idea of a single educational product which will meet the needs of each of our citizens is ludicrous. There is a reason why each year our cell phones get better yet cheaper, while our education system gets' more expensive yet at best limps along at "below average". That is because in the first market, resources are directed by consumers, but in the second they are directed by politicians.
    A good public system IS directed by "consumers", the parents. In a poor system the "consumers" don't care about the product, so they get almost nothing. Privatization isn't going to change that.
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  9. #159
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    Also, kids don't have any money.
    You think they all carry sack lunches? Or maybe you believe they all get free lunch?
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    You think they all carry sack lunches? Or maybe you believe they all get free lunch?
    If the "evil corporations" are really out to take advantage of kids for their own profit, I just want to know what money they are supposedly going after.

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