View Poll Results: Nationalize Schools?

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  • Yes

    16 16.84%
  • No

    70 73.68%
  • Other

    9 9.47%
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Thread: Nationalizing the Education System

  1. #131
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    What's the practical difference, then? The schools are still paid for by collective tax money. Only now they'll cost more, because not only do they have to pay for all of the teachers, space, and equipment to do the actual schooling, they have to turn a profit for their owners. So now you're just adding handing over tax money directly to the owners of private schools. How is that an improvement?

    I suppose this means that the private schools aren't held to the same standards as public schools? So then they can lie to kids about science? They can ignore requirements for special education students? I'm still not seeing a benefit.

    And this idea that suddenly kids will all go to better schools with vouchers. Where does that even come from? The good school has 300 spaces. There are 900 kids who want to go there. How do we decide which kid goes where? Is it by grades? Fine, that's a scholarship program. Is it by cost? That's not okay at all. Is it by proximity? That's what we have now. This idea that parents can shop around for schools is kind of silly. There aren't enough schools for that. There will still be a lot of kids stuck at the crappy schools who don't want to be there, and will be getting a lousy education because of it. Turning education into a for-profit business won't solve that. Properly funding the public education program will.
    I never suggested getting rid of the public schools. Just that parents who are disappointed with their local public school could use their tax money for their kid's education at another accredited school instead of having to pay for it out of pocket on top of the taxes. The current system has it so that only rich kids can go to private schools. What if you're in a horrible, horrible school district (of which America has many), yet are too poor to go somewhere else? I guess you're just SOL, right?

    I find it odd that you prefer only the rich kids get to have better opportunities.

    For schools to be eligible for the vouchers they would have to pass an accreditation process that they meet the curriculum standards and aren't just a daycare sapping funds.

    As it stands now the public schools have zero competition, and have zero reason to apply themselves. A little competition never hurt anyone. I can't think of a single downside, unless of course you're a lazy teacher, and that you might have to get off your ass.

  2. #132
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    What's the practical difference, then? The schools are still paid for by collective tax money. Only now they'll cost more, because not only do they have to pay for all of the teachers, space, and equipment to do the actual schooling, they have to turn a profit for their owners. So now you're just adding handing over tax money directly to the owners of private schools. How is that an improvement?

    I suppose this means that the private schools aren't held to the same standards as public schools? So then they can lie to kids about science? They can ignore requirements for special education students? I'm still not seeing a benefit.

    And this idea that suddenly kids will all go to better schools with vouchers. Where does that even come from? The good school has 300 spaces. There are 900 kids who want to go there. How do we decide which kid goes where? Is it by grades? Fine, that's a scholarship program. Is it by cost? That's not okay at all. Is it by proximity? That's what we have now. This idea that parents can shop around for schools is kind of silly. There aren't enough schools for that. There will still be a lot of kids stuck at the crappy schools who don't want to be there, and will be getting a lousy education because of it. Turning education into a for-profit business won't solve that. Properly funding the public education program will.



    You do know that this comes off as kinda racist, right? We "used to be better", back when there was a greater majority of white people. Now we have all these immigrants and more population with darker skin, so we can't understand each other or hold honor or decency (which are apparently white values to you) anymore.

    But even if the problem is "culture", wouldn't the solution be to educate people and help them prosper, rather than to write them off simply for being different?
    You say properly funding education will yield better results. Interesting, then perhaps you can explain, if you really believe more funding is required, why we already spend more per student at the funding level but are not at the top for money spent on a student at the student level? I can agree with "proper" funding, but that does not necessarily mean "more" money. We need to eliminate a lot of fat and uselessness soaking up those funds. If voucher are issued at the funding level, by passing all the intermediate levels, then yes, a for profit school could indeed by a lot cheaper for society than the current system.

    A public school system that denies the possibility of the existence of God is no less biased, ridiculous or more useful than schools that might actually fall under your scathing biased ridicule.

    As a socialist, you of course pursue the idea of a classless society, but a good and useful education system cannot exist if all students are treated the same and given the same education. You cannot educate someone with a 150 IQ the same way that you educate someone with an 85 IQ and when you add in the students with a 65 IQ, all you end up with is a completely useless, costly education system that meets the needs of no one. Oh, wait, that is what we have now. Could it be because decision makers have chosen, at least in part, to pursue the socialist ideal of classlessness and tries to deny differences and treat everyone the same?
    Only a fool measures equality by results and not opportunities.

  3. #133
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by chromium View Post
    How are they to accomplish that on such a limited budget? There are some like that i think, but most private schools aren't too stellar either, if we're talking K-12.
    Get a bigger budget, if you have better education chances are you you won't need to spend as much on welfare or other programs that are needed because of mostly bad education.

  4. #134
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    I never suggested getting rid of the public schools. Just that parents who are disappointed with their local public school could use their tax money for their kid's education at another accredited school instead of having to pay for it out of pocket on top of the taxes. The current system has it so that only rich kids can go to private schools. What if you're in a horrible, horrible school district (of which America has many), yet are too poor to go somewhere else? I guess you're just SOL, right?

    I find it odd that you prefer only the rich kids get to have better opportunities.

    For schools to be eligible for the vouchers they would have to pass an accreditation process that they meet the curriculum standards and aren't just a daycare sapping funds.

    As it stands now the public schools have zero competition, and have zero reason to apply themselves. A little competition never hurt anyone. I can't think of a single downside, unless of course you're a lazy teacher, and that you might have to get off your ass.
    See, that's the exact opposite of what I said. Poor neighborhoods with lousy schools should not just sit there and fester. They should be brought up so that they can function. Private schools for a basic education should not be necessary. The public schools should be funded so that they can provide the necessary education, because education is too important to leave to markets to decide how much education is the best for the school's profits.

    Private schools and vouchers are a short term solution to a long term problem.
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  5. #135
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    But those factors are not the reason for Japan's success. It always goes back to culture. Japan has a very homogenous population, with a very homogenous culture, and attitudes which facilitate their success. They collectively demand honor, respect, and courtesy throughout their society. They aren't multicultural and brash, or demanding of individual attention devoted to special needs. They are culturally about 180 degrees from us, and this is the primary reason for their success. We used to have a bit of those same attitudes, but that has been flushed down the proverbial toilet, as we have become so diverse, and so separated at the community level, that we can hardly identify with each other, short of a national crisis of some sort. Nationalized education standards would accomplish little, when our national identity is so varied, and we have such little value toward mutual respect, and higher education. Our schools have become little more than dysfunctional daycare centers for children with ****ed-up home lives in several parts of the country.
    I stand with you and agree that those cultural differences are indeed important. I also stand with you that we need to identify the positive things we want to have people adopt and try to get people to adopt them.

    Having said that, we still can learn from other nations. We still can identify what may be both useful and helpful to us. And we still can adopt ways which will make us improve. A national curriculum is part of that.

    The genius of Japan has always been that they borrow very non-Japanese strategies and methods from other foreign cultures and then make them Japanese. We need to do the same in the field of education with a national curriculum.

    I would disagree that our schools are dysfunctional day care centers. We have some excellent schools in this nation. We also have problems that must be dealt with.
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  6. #136
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoist View Post
    From what I've seen, the more education is centralized the more it resembles an assembly line.
    We have had 100% decentralized local control education for well over a century now. The only model they have ever adopted is the factory assembly line system. Centralization has nothing to do with that.
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  7. #137
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by iacardsfan View Post
    I know that seeing as the Federal Government is not given the power to meddle with education, and that allows the state to assume that power, the Constitution though does state that the Federal Government has the power to do things that will provide for the general welfare. Would you support such a measure to nationalize schools? Feel free to explain your vote!
    The general welfare clause has to do with taxes, not dictating school policy or making schools and what not. The part of the Constitution that could be applied to the Feds dictating school curriculum and what not is in Article 1 Section 8, "To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;". Now this clause is mainly about copyright's and what not but it could be construed as allowing them to take over education. Not that I would suggest it, just that it can be construed as such. After all, they've construed quite a bit out of pretty much every other part of the Constution...why not this part also?.........
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  8. #138
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    The general welfare clause has to do with taxes, not dictating school policy or making schools and what not. The part of the Constitution that could be applied to the Feds dictating school curriculum and what not is in Article 1 Section 8, "To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;". Now this clause is mainly about copyright's and what not but it could be construed as allowing them to take over education. Not that I would suggest it, just that it can be construed as such. After all, they've construed quite a bit out of pretty much every other part of the Constution...why not this part also?.........
    Because it would be ridiculous to try to make that argument even with modern or ancient linguistics. The commerce clause would be a better argument, but in the end, they do it through money--"Here is X millions of federal dollars for your schools. Do as we say and take the money; don't do everything we say down to the letter and you get no money. So what is it going to be, triple your local sales and property taxes, or make your kids take and pass a test we design that will dictate your education policy in order to be able to pass?"

  9. #139
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    See, that's the exact opposite of what I said. Poor neighborhoods with lousy schools should not just sit there and fester. They should be brought up so that they can function. Private schools for a basic education should not be necessary. The public schools should be funded so that they can provide the necessary education, because education is too important to leave to markets to decide how much education is the best for the school's profits.

    Private schools and vouchers are a short term solution to a long term problem.
    So I'm glad you at least vouchers as a solution, even if only a short term one.

    What I don't understand is why this would negatively impact the public schools. If they're doing a better job than the local private schools, they will have more students, if they are not, they will have less students. Either way, more students will be with higher quality education.

    You don't seem to have a problem with parents putting their kids in private schools, why are you only against them getting their tax dollars back to do it? You're still giving the rich a larger advantage. Education is the single most important factor in determining how someone's life will be. The rich in our country can afford better educations, and as such the situation perpetuates itself.

    If the local public school isn't doing their job, why should the parents be stuck with it?

  10. #140
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    See, that's the exact opposite of what I said. Poor neighborhoods with lousy schools should not just sit there and fester. They should be brought up so that they can function. Private schools for a basic education should not be necessary. The public schools should be funded so that they can provide the necessary education, because education is too important to leave to markets to decide how much education is the best for the school's profits.

    Private schools and vouchers are a short term solution to a long term problem.
    And how do you come to the conclusion that schools in poor neighborhoods primarily suffer from poor funding and not from disruptive influences of those neighborhoods. Funding has nothing to do with the drugs, gangs, poor parenting, lack of discipline, inability to attract good teachers (ok, funding might influence this one, but really, how much do you want to pay a teacher to get them to teach in what is basically a combat zone), etc. The environment in which the schools exist has a much larger influence than funding in those areas.
    Only a fool measures equality by results and not opportunities.

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