View Poll Results: Nationalize Schools?

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  • Yes

    16 16.84%
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    70 73.68%
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Thread: Nationalizing the Education System

  1. #121
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by AliHajiSheik View Post
    Are you implying that someone can't have independent thoughts or question the status quo? I posed questions, did you respond to your student in the same way? You questioned the status quo of the states role in government and I continued the line of thinking to the way teachers taught students. Of course, you liked your idea and hated mine and continues by saying that I was unlearned and ignorant about the field of education.

    There is no reason to jump to insults for challenging your assumptions, but then again, I was never a teacher and cannot possibly recognize what for you must be a normal teaching method.
    People are encouraged to have independent thoughts. Do you have any to offer? So far, I have seen nothing in the way of anything that approaches an independent thought.

    You say I hated your idea. What "idea" did you have on the topic?

    I am not teaching here. There is not necessarily any relationship or similarity between how I taught young people in the classroom and how I deal with you here. Of course, it causes one to wonder why you would equate the two in the first place?
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  2. #122
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Let the states and communities have control over education. Competition of ideas is a great thing and we won't get that with a nationalized system.
    "Men did not make the earth ... it is the value of the improvement only, and not the earth itself, that is individual property... Every proprietor owes to the community a ground rent for the land which he holds." -- Thomas Paine, Agrarian Justice
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  3. #123
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoist View Post
    Let the states and communities have control over education. Competition of ideas is a great thing and we won't get that with a nationalized system.
    We have had that for the last century. Do you know of any public educational system that uses anything but the factory assembly line model of education based on age? One would think that if your point about competition resulting in great ideas we would have seen the change to the greatest single obstacle in the structure of education. But we do not.
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  4. #124
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    We have had that for the last century. Do you know of any public educational system that uses anything but the factory assembly line model of education based on age? One would think that if your point about competition resulting in great ideas we would have seen the change to the greatest single obstacle in the structure of education. But we do not.
    Imo the problem on a government level is with bureaucracy, red tape, and corruption. Those things aren't going away when you nationalize it. What we need to address is the problem of poverty. When poverty is alleviated then education can be fixed.
    "Men did not make the earth ... it is the value of the improvement only, and not the earth itself, that is individual property... Every proprietor owes to the community a ground rent for the land which he holds." -- Thomas Paine, Agrarian Justice
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  5. #125
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    A nationalized education system would NEVER be a factory assembly line model.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
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  6. #126
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoist View Post
    Imo the problem on a government level is with bureaucracy, red tape, and corruption. Those things aren't going away when you nationalize it. What we need to address is the problem of poverty. When poverty is alleviated then education can be fixed.
    If you can solve the problem of poverty, you need to be KING.

    I have seen bureaucracy, red tale and corruption in all levels of public and private business... education is nothing special in that. For what its worth - how much "corruption" can there be in the classroom? Any corruption takes place on an administrative level mostly through monetary contracts.

    And even with all your local control for the past century, can you find any districts which have left behind the factor assembly line model based on age? I cannot.
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  7. #127
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    A nationalized education system would NEVER be a factory assembly line model.
    What does that even mean? The locals have had it their way for the past century and the factory assembly line model is indeed their model.
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  8. #128
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    For many years, the nation of JAPAN was held up as the standard of excellence against which US school were measured and found lacking. In the 1990's I studied the Japanese system and was sent to Japan to observe their schools. One major reason for their success is they have a NATIONAL system with one standard curriculum that applies to the entire nation from Sapporo down to Okinawa. An office in Tokyo is responsible and everything in the schools has a uniformity and sameness in terms of course outlines, text materials, timelines, testing tools and other components. Teachers have individual discretion and ability to adapt these to their own style and methodology and they are not robots. National tests are perfectly dovetailed into that curriculum.

    The result is a system which produces a very highly educated population across a very broad swath of society. The result is a system in which kids excel at achieving the test scores which make us look bad here.

    The USA has a decision to make. Are we one nation with one people or are we something much less than that? The answer is steeped in politics, immersed in ideology and hamstrung by history and tradition.

    We badly need a national curriculum which would apply to the entire nation. I suspect America is NOT ready for nationalization of schools and still would want to retain some local control. But a nation wide curriculum is a badly needed and necessary component to achieving the results here that are normal and expected in Japan.
    But those factors are not the reason for Japan's success. It always goes back to culture. Japan has a very homogenous population, with a very homogenous culture, and attitudes which facilitate their success. They collectively demand honor, respect, and courtesy throughout their society. They aren't multicultural and brash, or demanding of individual attention devoted to special needs. They are culturally about 180 degrees from us, and this is the primary reason for their success. We used to have a bit of those same attitudes, but that has been flushed down the proverbial toilet, as we have become so diverse, and so separated at the community level, that we can hardly identify with each other, short of a national crisis of some sort. Nationalized education standards would accomplish little, when our national identity is so varied, and we have such little value toward mutual respect, and higher education. Our schools have become little more than dysfunctional daycare centers for children with ****ed-up home lives in several parts of the country.
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  9. #129
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    I don't think he ever said that would be the case. What's wrong with a school voucher being issued to every child's parents to use at any accredited school?
    What's the practical difference, then? The schools are still paid for by collective tax money. Only now they'll cost more, because not only do they have to pay for all of the teachers, space, and equipment to do the actual schooling, they have to turn a profit for their owners. So now you're just adding handing over tax money directly to the owners of private schools. How is that an improvement?

    I suppose this means that the private schools aren't held to the same standards as public schools? So then they can lie to kids about science? They can ignore requirements for special education students? I'm still not seeing a benefit.

    And this idea that suddenly kids will all go to better schools with vouchers. Where does that even come from? The good school has 300 spaces. There are 900 kids who want to go there. How do we decide which kid goes where? Is it by grades? Fine, that's a scholarship program. Is it by cost? That's not okay at all. Is it by proximity? That's what we have now. This idea that parents can shop around for schools is kind of silly. There aren't enough schools for that. There will still be a lot of kids stuck at the crappy schools who don't want to be there, and will be getting a lousy education because of it. Turning education into a for-profit business won't solve that. Properly funding the public education program will.

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    But those factors are not the reason for Japan's success. It always goes back to culture. Japan has a very homogenous population, with a very homogenous culture, and attitudes which facilitate their success. They collectively demand honor, respect, and courtesy throughout their society. They aren't multicultural and brash, or demanding of individual attention devoted to special needs. They are culturally about 180 degrees from us, and this is the primary reason for their success. We used to have a bit of those same attitudes, but that has been flushed down the proverbial toilet, as we have become so diverse, and so separated at the community level, that we can hardly identify with each other, short of a national crisis of some sort. Nationalized education standards would accomplish little, when our national identity is so varied, and we have such little value toward mutual respect, and higher education. Our schools have become little more than dysfunctional daycare centers for children with ****ed-up home lives in several parts of the country.
    You do know that this comes off as kinda racist, right? We "used to be better", back when there was a greater majority of white people. Now we have all these immigrants and more population with darker skin, so we can't understand each other or hold honor or decency (which are apparently white values to you) anymore.

    But even if the problem is "culture", wouldn't the solution be to educate people and help them prosper, rather than to write them off simply for being different?
    Last edited by Paschendale; 05-13-13 at 03:30 PM.
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  10. #130
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    If you can solve the problem of poverty, you need to be KING.
    Socialists try to solve poverty. I thought socialists don't believe in monarchies?

    I do believe it is possible to end poverty, but that requires a complete transformation of the tax system.

    How to End Poverty | Jacob Shwartz-Lucas



    I have seen bureaucracy, red tale and corruption in all levels of public and private business... education is nothing special in that.
    True, but typically the more centralized a power, the more corruption you have. This applies to both the business world and government. Education should be in the hands of teachers, parents, and communities.

    For what its worth - how much "corruption" can there be in the classroom?
    Never said anything about the classroom.


    And even with all your local control for the past century, can you find any districts which have left behind the factor assembly line model based on age? I cannot.
    From what I've seen, the more education is centralized the more it resembles an assembly line.
    "Men did not make the earth ... it is the value of the improvement only, and not the earth itself, that is individual property... Every proprietor owes to the community a ground rent for the land which he holds." -- Thomas Paine, Agrarian Justice
    http://www.wealthandwant.com/

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