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Thread: Nationalizing the Education System

  1. #101
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by AliHajiSheik View Post
    I'll pass on your vision of the country as one homogenized land. I prefer a common thread with state variations based upon the wishes of its citizens. You may advocate for English as a national language but if some border state wants to include signs or instructions in Spanish as well, that is their business.

    As for your example of someone born in NY, etc. That person has a better idea of the things that they liked and didn't like about the various places they lived. Instead, you want someone in Washington, DC to decide how things should be and everyone else has to accept it. I'm not in favor of that level of tyranny.

    As for standardized tests, I'm not the one that said they are worthless. You were the one who wants to change the educational system because: "national standardized tests are worse than useless."
    I can always tell when somebody has really gone over the right edge of the cliff when they use the word TYRANNY to describe normal things in American life that are simply decisions the peoples government makes with the input of the citizenry. You don't like the result so then its the over the top hyperbolic TYRANNY. Amazing.

    Standardized tests do NOT have to be worse that useless. They can be useful and valuable tools providing they are true and accurate measurements of what students are actually learning - or not learning - in their curriculum. Today, where that curriculum can vary from state to state and from city to town and even from school to school, it is indeed useless. But at the same time that does not prevent anti-public education critics from using those numbers as a club to try and destroy public education.

    Are we one nation or are we not? This is central in deciding not only this but other issues in American life as well.
    Last edited by haymarket; 05-13-13 at 10:31 AM.
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  2. #102
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    while our education system gets' more expensive yet at best limps along at "below average".
    This is such a falsehood. Our educational system is not below average, our educational system is far above average. I've posted this before, but I'll post it again:

    Socioeconomic inequality among U.S. students skews international comparisons of test scores, finds a new report released today by the Stanford Graduate School of Education and the Economic Policy Institute. When differences in countries' social class compositions are adequately taken into account, the performance of U.S. students in relation to students in other countries improves markedly.

    The report, "What do international tests really show about U.S. student performance?", also details how errors in selecting sample populations of test-takers and arbitrary choices regarding test content contribute to results that appear to show U.S. students lagging.

    Based on their analysis, the co-authors found that average U.S. scores in reading and math on the PISA are low partly because a disproportionately greater share of U.S. students comes from disadvantaged social class groups, whose performance is relatively low in every country.

    As part of the study, Carnoy and Rothstein calculated how international rankings on the most recent PISA might change if the United States had a social class composition similar to that of top-ranking nations: U.S. rankings would rise to fourth from 14th in reading and to 10th from 25th in math. The gap between U.S. students and those from the highest-achieving countries would be cut in half in reading and by at least a third in math.
    Poor ranking on international test misleading about US student performance, researcher finds

    But even if you reject the biases and errors noted in this report, neither 14th in reading nor 25th in math is below average.
    Last edited by Slyfox696; 05-13-13 at 10:43 AM.

  3. #103
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    I can always tell when somebody has really gone over the right edge of the cliff when they use the word TYRANNY to describe normal things in American life that are simply decisions the peoples government makes with the input of the citizenry. You don't like the result so then its the over the top hyperbolic TYRANNY. Amazing.

    Are we one nation or are we not? This is central in deciding not only this but other issues in American life as well.
    All you see is right or left, so I'm not surprised that you get upset when someone opposes your "crusade." Simple dictionary definition of tyranny: "oppressive power exerted by government". If it makes you feel better, I change my description to "federal tyranny." Someone else might extend that to state tyranny, but I'm not one of them.

    This isn't about are we one nation or not (which we are, so you can off that high horse) but where should decisions about education be made. Certainly the Federal government can be helpful in providing information to the states, but that's where I see the end of their role. I suspect that you will never see a limit of the federal government's role in education. Or am I mistaken?

  4. #104
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by Slyfox696 View Post
    This is such a falsehood. Our educational system is not below average, our educational system is far above average. I've posted this before, but I'll post it again:

    Poor ranking on international test misleading about US student performance, researcher finds

    But even if you reject the biases and errors noted in this report, neither 14th in reading nor 25th is below average.
    The fact that socioeconomic background is a strong controlling factor for academic success is not astonishing. I remember similar points being raised when - during the Governor Walker kerfuffle - people compare the education systems of Texas and Wisconsin. Wisconsin won the overall average, but Texas won for each socioeconomic / ethnic group when compare apples to apples.

    But the idea that our educational system does an excellent job of transferring net opportunity as well as wealth from our lower socioeconomic classes to our upper middle socioeconomic classes does not exactly fill me with joy. I think I'll take a look (when I have a free minute and the wife is not loudly throat clearing about how isn't-it-late?) at their methods for altering US social gaps. Obviously if they are taking our higher performers an comparing those abroad we will do better. If every batter was allowed to only count the bats where he got a hit, everyone's batting average would be 1.00

  5. #105
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    The fact that socioeconomic background is a strong controlling factor for academic success is not astonishing.
    You're right, it's not. In fact, it makes quite a bit of sense. Thus, the way we fix education is to fix society. Obviously fixing society is quite the uphill march, and there are so many recommended paths to get there, but it's the way we "fix" education.

  6. #106
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    I think I'll take a look (when I have a free minute and the wife is not loudly throat clearing about how isn't-it-late?) at their methods for altering US social gaps.
    Ah. The first hit on Google (though agreeably a source which makes clear its' predisposition) enlightens us:

    The only adjustment for social class used in this study is the student estimate of the number of books in his or her home. In 2009 a higher percentage of U. S. students (than those in the other six countries) told PISA, the international testing agency, that they came from a family with few books in the home. Condensing Carnoy-Rothstein’s six categories into three, the table below summarizes the facts reported in their table 2A.....

    To Carnoy and Rothstein these data show that the lower class is nearly three times as large in the United States as in Korea. Even more bizarre, they want us to think the Korean upper class is nearly twice as big as that of the United States. If that is correct, one must expect a major migration from the United States to Korea.

    If the number of books in the family home accurately measures a person’s social class, both you, dear reader, and I, myself, could now enjoy the pleasure of membership within the highest ranks of the upper, upper one percent of the social class distribution.

    The researchers defend their methodology on the ground that no other indicator of social class improves the correlation between social class and achievement. That’s hardly surprising, as many studies have shown that family income is a poor predictor of achievement once other variables are taken into account. The failure of any other variable to add much to the achievement prediction simply shows that good reading habits are much more important to achievement than family income and other measures of social class. Schools can do something about good reading habits, and American schools need to be much better in this regard....

    So. Apparently not so much.

  7. #107
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by Slyfox696 View Post
    You're right, it's not. In fact, it makes quite a bit of sense. Thus, the way we fix education is to fix society.
    Welcome to the pro-marriage movement.

  8. #108
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by AliHajiSheik View Post
    All you see is right or left, so I'm not surprised that you get upset when someone opposes your "crusade." Simple dictionary definition of tyranny: "oppressive power exerted by government". If it makes you feel better, I change my description to "federal tyranny." Someone else might extend that to state tyranny, but I'm not one of them.

    This isn't about are we one nation or not (which we are, so you can off that high horse) but where should decisions about education be made. Certainly the Federal government can be helpful in providing information to the states, but that's where I see the end of their role. I suspect that you will never see a limit of the federal government's role in education. Or am I mistaken?
    It is about one nation or not. We will indeed rise of fall as a nation of one people. We are one country and one people and its about time we started acting like it. The miseducated child in one state or city can plague a different one as an adult. The economy and society is hurt by all who were not properly educated regardless of what city or state they lived in at that time.

    As somebody who spend 33 years in public education, I saw billions of dollars wasted on administrative duplication in district after district and in state after state, each doing the same job that simply could have been done at one level and the moneys better used in the classroom. We have a terribly inefficient and redundant system in this country with tens of thousands of people developing curriculum when it only takes a few hundred as they do in other nations like Japan.

    And who on that town or village level is making these expert decisions about education? Real estate sales people? Somebody who owns the local dry cleaners? Somebody who is popular at the country club?
    Those are your local 'experts' making decisions about what is best for education. You may as well ask the pie baker to do a heart operation or the baby sitter to install your new furnace using that sort of logic.
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    It is about one nation or not. We will indeed rise of fall as a nation of one people. We are one country and one people and its about time we started acting like it. The miseducated child in one state or city can plague a different one as an adult. The economy and society is hurt by all who were not properly educated regardless of what city or state they lived in at that time.

    As somebody who spend 33 years in public education, I saw billions of dollars wasted on administrative duplication in district after district and in state after state, each doing the same job that simply could have been done at one level and the moneys better used in the classroom. We have a terribly inefficient and redundant system in this country with tens of thousands of people developing curriculum when it only takes a few hundred as they do in other nations like Japan.

    And who on that town or village level is making these expert decisions about education? Real estate sales people? Somebody who owns the local dry cleaners? Somebody who is popular at the country club?
    Those are your local 'experts' making decisions about what is best for education. You may as well ask the pie baker to do a heart operation or the baby sitter to install your new furnace using that sort of logic.
    this reminds me of those who used to talk about the "wastefullness" of competition.

  10. #110
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    Re: Nationalizing the Education System

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    It is about one nation or not. We will indeed rise of fall as a nation of one people. We are one country and one people and its about time we started acting like it. The miseducated child in one state or city can plague a different one as an adult. The economy and society is hurt by all who were not properly educated regardless of what city or state they lived in at that time.

    As somebody who spend 33 years in public education, I saw billions of dollars wasted on administrative duplication in district after district and in state after state, each doing the same job that simply could have been done at one level and the moneys better used in the classroom. We have a terribly inefficient and redundant system in this country with tens of thousands of people developing curriculum when it only takes a few hundred as they do in other nations like Japan.

    And who on that town or village level is making these expert decisions about education? Real estate sales people? Somebody who owns the local dry cleaners? Somebody who is popular at the country club?
    Those are your local 'experts' making decisions about what is best for education. You may as well ask the pie baker to do a heart operation or the baby sitter to install your new furnace using that sort of logic.
    I see, you've become an efficiency expert. If you are going in that direction, why not just have a couple of dozen teachers across the time zones and then education students that way? You won't need as many teachers, everyone can get the same education because a teacher's slant on the subject isn't confusing anyone, and you certainly won't need as many buildings or janitors, or librarians but you will need more IT support people. I know, you can even have parallel channels of education and the local school board can decide which approved teacher they want broadcasted--the New York access for NY students, and a Massachusetts access for those that hate NY accents. Unless you are trying to get rid of accents too.

    Talking about saving billions, let's go all in. Of course, once we do that we'll have to figure out what to do with the "miseducated [sic]" children.

    If you read back, you will see that I wasn't addressing local control on the village level, but on the state level. I live in a state with 67 counties and 501 school districts, so I'm in favor of some consolidation.

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