View Poll Results: What is morality/

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  • a false concept

    5 7.04%
  • the laws of a particular society

    20 28.17%
  • the laws of God

    10 14.08%
  • the laws of nature

    9 12.68%
  • other

    27 38.03%
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Thread: morality

  1. #311
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    Re: morality

    Quote Originally Posted by mpg View Post
    Does it exist? If so, what is it?
    I hope that helps. If you have 50 spare minutes, that is.

  2. #312
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    Re: morality

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    This exact same situation exists in the debate about god's existence. The second half of that statement is just as inane here as it is there. Logically, you can't prove the non-existence of something. As I've told others using this defense, I will not go chasing teapots in orbit.
    I didn't ask you to chase teapots in orbit. You asked me to.


    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    I gave my opinion; There is no objective morality.
    Thank you for expressing your opinion. That's exactly what I was looking for.
    If you expect people to be rational, you aren't being rational.

  3. #313
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    Re: morality

    Quote Originally Posted by mpg View Post
    I didn't ask you to chase teapots in orbit. You asked me to.
    Incorrect. I've consistently asked for evidence of your positive claim that objective morality exists. If it's truly objective then you should have plenty of objective evidence for it's existence.

    "Can anyone prove that it doesn't exist? No." - That's either asking someone to chase teapots in orbit or it's stating the obvious, that there's never any way to prove something like this doesn't exist, which in no way promotes the case for it's existence.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
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  4. #314
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    Re: morality

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrylek View Post
    Why?!!!

    There's any number of objective truths that are ignored, forgotten, disputed, or never learned by any number of people.

    For a morality to be objective it needs one thing: To be invariable within the conditions of human species - independent of subjective, temporary, conditional factors. A morality based on freedom of choice is such.
    Not at all. If resources are limited it may be required for the good of the whole to ration supplies, thereby curtailing freedom of choice. That's just one quick example, there are others.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

  5. #315
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    Re: morality

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrylek View Post
    If you decisions were not your own, how was your life different from a life of a frog driven by instincts, or from existence of a robot driven by a program? Even pure "passive" contemplation requires making decisions - what to focus on, how to relax to be more receptive, etc.
    You're talking to the wrong guy to say animals don't make choices. You can slap whatever label you like on their decision making processes but except for the complexity and memory capacity they seem to be very similar to ours.

    ((PS I won't bother going into the whole "consciousness" thing, that's for another thread.))


    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrylek View Post
    Accepting freedom of choice as the basis for morality is not the end of it - it is the beginning. Of course we still need to do a lot of work on derivative rules and particular cases, and even then it will never be perfect. But it will be built around an objective core - as opposed to the moral systems based on authority or current consensus (and as such inherently relativist and fragile).
    I shouldn't have to "accept" freedom of choice. If it's truly universal then it should be self-evident, no acceptance required. Our disagreement shows that it isn't.
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 05-07-13 at 08:57 PM.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

  6. #316
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    Re: morality

    Quote Originally Posted by Canell View Post
    I hope that helps. If you have 50 spare minutes, that is.
    An interesting program ... Thanks!
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

  7. #317
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    Re: morality

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    Not at all. If resources are limited it may be required for the good of the whole to ration supplies, thereby curtailing freedom of choice. That's just one quick example, there are others.
    Not for "the good of all" - out of compassion, out of empathy. Yes, of course, we are not going to let children die of hunger, even if it means stealing food from those unwilling to share. Doesn't make theft any more moral.

    Empathy has to override morality sometimes. But it cannot replace it. Empathy is a feeling. Morality is a set of rules. See the difference?

  8. #318
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    Re: morality

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    You're talking to the wrong guy to say animals don't make choices..
    If they do, they should be treated just like humans. (I already treat my dogs that way; waiting for some solid evidence, before I turn vegetarian)

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    I shouldn't have to "accept" freedom of choice. If it's truly universal then it should be self-evident, no acceptance required.
    "Objective" doesn't mean "self-evident". The Earth is objectively orbiting the Sun.

    And yes - as long as you are a human being - and not a machine or an instinct-driven animal - your acceptance is required, at every step, at every turn, in every sense.

  9. #319
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    Re: morality

    Is a false concept insofar as there is no underlying moral structure to the universe or to human nature. All moral schema are devised by man and given the airy gloss of divine fiat; even secular moralities that claim universality (Objectivism's "rational egoism" or the Non-Aggression Principle advanced by some particularly philosophically flaky libertarians) are basically 'false' in the sense they cannot be demonstrated to be actually morally universal.

    This doesn't mean they aren't useful. Nietzsche's division of moralities between "good and evil" and "good and bad" is particularly useful here. A moral system that makes no claim to being handed down from On High is called an ethos, and its rules are called ethics. We, in our society, need less morality and more ethics.
    I dip my forefinger in the watery blood of your impotent mad-redeemer (your Divine Democrat — your Hebrew Madman) and write over his thorn-torn brow, “The true prince of Evil — the king of the Slaves!”
    - Ragnar Redbeard, Might Is Right, 1890

  10. #320
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    Re: morality

    I haven't read the entire thread, so this may have already been posted.

    "Morality (from the Latin moralitas "manner, character, proper behavior") is the differentiation of intentions, decisions, and actions between those that are "good" (or right) and those that are "bad" (or wrong). The philosophy of morality is ethics. A moral code is a system of morality (according to a particular philosophy, religion, culture, etc.) and a moral is any one practice or teaching within a moral code. Morality may also be specifically synonymous with "goodness" or "rightness." Immorality is the active opposition to morality (i.e. opposition to that which is good or right), while amorality is variously defined as an unawareness of, indifference toward, or disbelief in any set of moral standards or principles. An example of a moral code is the Golden Rule which states that, "One should treat others as one would like others to treat oneself.""

    -From Wikipedia

    Semantics arguments irritate me. it's idiotic when we have serious problems in our government that require the attention and cooperation of every concerned citizen, to argue over the superiority or inferiority of any number of otherwise acceptable definitions of a word.

    Morality means a lot of different things to a lot of different people. The word is fraught with meaning that makes it extremely difficult to successfully use in the realm of the political discourse without producing more misunderstanding of your views than understanding.

    If you don't want to get hung up on a time-wasting debate about what the word means, either avoid using the word, or be sure to qualify it with more concise language in order to ensure that you are not misunderstood.

    And if you DO want to get hung up on a time-wasting debate about word meaning, then go edit Wikipedia or work for a dictionary company or something, and stop distracting the people that come to political forums to discuss public policy.

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