View Poll Results: What is morality/

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  • a false concept

    5 7.04%
  • the laws of a particular society

    20 28.17%
  • the laws of God

    10 14.08%
  • the laws of nature

    9 12.68%
  • other

    27 38.03%
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Thread: morality

  1. #301
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    Re: morality

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    "Core values"? From what source, your heart? May as well invoke God and be done with it.
    I don't believe in God, but it wouldn't bother me if someone did that. This poll really isn't intended to be a debate. I just wanna know what people think.

    Let me ask you something. Do you feel that rape is immoral? If you do, imagine that you were never born and every single person on Earth felt that it was moral. Do you feel that rape would be moral in that situation?
    If you expect people to be rational, you aren't being rational.

  2. #302
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    Re: morality

    Quote Originally Posted by mpg View Post
    I don't believe in God, but it wouldn't bother me if someone did that. This poll really isn't intended to be a debate. I just wanna know what people think.

    Let me ask you something. Do you feel that rape is immoral? If you do, imagine that you were never born and every single person on Earth felt that it was moral. Do you feel that rape would be moral in that situation?
    What I feel and think doesn't matter with respect to proving a universal morality. Even what you and I can agree on doesn't matter because we exist in the same time within the same culture and are undoubtedly biased by it. A universal morality would have to encompass all of human history and I don't believe any one morality can do that.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
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  3. #303
    Light△Bender

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    Re: morality

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrylek View Post
    It sure "brings us back". As in "chasing our own tails".

    "Fairness" is not a "concept". It is amorphous, subjective, about as simple as asking for directions in English in the ancient Babylon, and totally useless as a moral guide.

    Which is very "unfair", I agree
    Hell even a 6 yr old knows what's fair. It's less subjective than any definition of morals.
    Einstein, "science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

  4. #304
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    Re: morality

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    What I feel and think doesn't matter with respect to proving a universal morality. Even what you and I can agree on doesn't matter because we exist in the same time within the same culture and are undoubtedly biased by it. A universal morality would have to encompass all of human history and I don't believe any one morality can do that.
    Can anyone prove the existence of objective morality? No. Can anyone prove that it doesn't exist? No. Does that make it wrong to opine about its existence? No.Haven't you ever believed something that you can't prove? Do you have no opinions whatsoever?
    If you expect people to be rational, you aren't being rational.

  5. #305
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    Re: morality

    Quote Originally Posted by grip View Post
    Hell even a 6 yr old knows what's fair. It's less subjective than any definition of morals.
    A 6 yr old perhaps does. (As does that chimpanzee). When we grow up and start thinking as adults, "the knowledge" disappears.

  6. #306
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    Re: morality

    Quote Originally Posted by grip View Post
    Hell even a 6 yr old knows what's fair. It's less subjective than any definition of morals.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrylek View Post
    A 6 yr old perhaps does. (As does that chimpanzee). When we grow up and start thinking as adults, "the knowledge" disappears.
    A 6 year old is undoubtedly going to make things simpler. We adults (less so in my case) tend to make things more complicated.
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    scientific by itself isn't enough of course.
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  7. #307
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    Re: morality

    Quote Originally Posted by mpg View Post
    Can anyone prove the existence of objective morality? No. Can anyone prove that it doesn't exist? No. Does that make it wrong to opine about its existence? No.Haven't you ever believed something that you can't prove? Do you have no opinions whatsoever?
    This exact same situation exists in the debate about god's existence. The second half of that statement is just as inane here as it is there. Logically, you can't prove the non-existence of something. As I've told others using this defense, I will not go chasing teapots in orbit.


    I gave my opinion; There is no objective morality.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

  8. #308
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    Re: morality

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrylek View Post
    Do we agree that humans - objectively, universally and distinctively - are sentient, and possess volition and the ability to make choices?
    We can agree that humans are animals, yes.


    Do we agree that whatever particulars one or the other moral system may embrace, making choices is central to the very notion of morality - and to the very fabric of human experience?
    We can agree it's central to morality since morality is an individual's guide for making choices that have no objective and/or logical conclusion.

    I wouldn't say making decisions is "the very fabric of human experience".


    Do we agree that an individual (a grown, mentally competent adult, at any rate) who is denied his freedom of choice is being wronged, whatever his choices are, if they do no harm to other individuals?
    That would depend a great deal on what you consider "harm to other individuals". If your beliefs follow the same as many others I've been having discussions with, then the answer is most likely "no" because we probably disagree on the noted phrase.

    I would also point out that for a morality to be "objective" it must hold for all societies at all times. I'm pretty sure none of them do and certainly where you're headed here doesn't.


    If you answer yes to all three - there you go. Coercion is and always had been morally wrong, ever since the dawn of human sapience.
    I didn't - there you go.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

  9. #309
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    Re: morality

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    I would also point out that for a morality to be "objective" it must hold for all societies at all times.
    Why?!!!

    There's any number of objective truths that are ignored, forgotten, disputed, or never learned by any number of people.

    For a morality to be objective it needs one thing: To be invariable within the conditions of human species - independent of subjective, temporary, conditional factors. A morality based on freedom of choice is such.

  10. #310
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    Re: morality

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    I wouldn't say making decisions is "the very fabric of human experience"..
    If you decisions were not your own, how was your life different from a life of a frog driven by instincts, or from existence of a robot driven by a program? Even pure "passive" contemplation requires making decisions - what to focus on, how to relax to be more receptive, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    That would depend a great deal on what you consider "harm to other individuals". If your beliefs follow the same as many others I've been having discussions with, then the answer is most likely "no" because we probably disagree on the noted phrase.
    Accepting freedom of choice as the basis for morality is not the end of it - it is the beginning. Of course we still need to do a lot of work on derivative rules and particular cases, and even then it will never be perfect. But it will be built around an objective core - as opposed to the moral systems based on authority or current consensus (and as such inherently relativist and fragile).

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