View Poll Results: What is morality/

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  • a false concept

    5 7.04%
  • the laws of a particular society

    20 28.17%
  • the laws of God

    10 14.08%
  • the laws of nature

    9 12.68%
  • other

    27 38.03%
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Thread: morality

  1. #291
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    Re: morality

    Quote Originally Posted by zgoldsmith23 View Post
    How do you think that makes morality objective? Objective morality wouldn't mean a choice.
    It means no choice in respect to granting others their freedom to have their choices. Whatever they are. It doesn't get any more objective than that.


    Quote Originally Posted by zgoldsmith23 View Post
    Why is that immoral to deny X his choosing? Why is his choice immoral if it means denying choices to other people?
    Axiomatically. You have a moral system pivoted on the freedom of choice - that's what you get. "Do not onto others..." Nobody "wishes" to be coerced, by definition.

  2. #292
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    Re: morality

    Quote Originally Posted by grip View Post
    I'm not confused they're the same thing morals interpreted subjectively by humans.
    You can "interpret" meaning out of anything. It doesn't mean there was no meaning in the first place.
    Every woman in the world knows the difference between an act of voluntary love and rape. One of the best things in life - and one of the worst. Physically, the same event. What's the difference? Why, coercion is the difference, disregard for the freedom of choice. The cultural circumstances may be dramatically different, and a woman in one culture would not give her consent when a woman in another would - but both know perfectly well when it happens without their consent. And know it is wrong, to put it mildly.

  3. #293
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    Re: morality

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrylek View Post
    It means no choice in respect to granting others their freedom to have their choices. Whatever they are. It doesn't get any more objective than that.
    You or I could grant someone the choice of not living. You falsely assume that everyone wants to grant other's their freedom.

    Axiomatically. You have a moral system pivoted on the freedom of choice - that's what you get. "Do not onto others..." Nobody "wishes" to be coerced, by definition.
    That's an axiom to you. To me, that's absolute rubbish as there's no evidence for it by definition.
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    scientific by itself isn't enough of course.
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  4. #294
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    Re: morality

    Quote Originally Posted by zgoldsmith23 View Post
    You falsely assume that everyone wants to grant other's their freedom.
    I assume no such thing. The question was whether an objective morality system (not based on the authority of gods or dictators, societal consensus, or personal maneuvering in pursuit of fame, pleasure etc) does exist. Yes, it does. Obviously, not everyone is accustomed to it, and plenty of people will reject it on the spot - as incompatible with their own values.

    English language does exist objectively, and is a smashing success, as lingua franca of our times. It doesn't mean, of course, that everyone in the world speaks English - or wants to.

  5. #295
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    Re: morality

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrylek View Post
    You can "interpret" meaning out of anything. It doesn't mean there was no meaning in the first place.
    Every woman in the world knows the difference between an act of voluntary love and rape. One of the best things in life - and one of the worst. Physically, the same event. What's the difference? Why, coercion is the difference, disregard for the freedom of choice. The cultural circumstances may be dramatically different, and a woman in one culture would not give her consent when a woman in another would - but both know perfectly well when it happens without their consent. And know it is wrong, to put it mildly.
    Which brings us back to my original comment that all laws, rules, morals and values are based on the simple concept of fairness.
    Einstein, "science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

  6. #296
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    Re: morality

    Quote Originally Posted by zgoldsmith23 View Post
    To me, that's absolute rubbish as there's no evidence for it by definition.
    I know, I know: You have all evidence you need to believe that you are sentient and possess the ability to choose. And I bet you treasure that ability. Not moving to North Korea or Iran any time soon.

    As for all the other people...Who knows, we may be zombies, or robots, or - how about that? - spurious figments of your imagination.

    Quite some imagination you've got there. So, only 90% jokingly, do you think you are God?

  7. #297
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    Re: morality

    Quote Originally Posted by mpg View Post
    Some things boil down to core values. What I feel in my heart doesn't require evidence. I feel in my heart that objective morality exists. If your morals apply to others, they aren't just your morals.
    "Core values"? From what source, your heart? May as well invoke God and be done with it.
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  8. #298
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    Re: morality

    Quote Originally Posted by grip View Post
    Which brings us back to my original comment that all laws, rules, morals and values are based on the simple concept of fairness.
    It sure "brings us back". As in "chasing our own tails".

    "Fairness" is not a "concept". It is amorphous, subjective, about as simple as asking for directions in English in the ancient Babylon, and totally useless as a moral guide.

    Which is very "unfair", I agree

  9. #299
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    Re: morality

    Morality is the rules that a the members of a particular society are expected to abide by; and of course there are many moral systems for different societies. I remember reading about one such society that an anthropologist studied one of the values of that society was being able to steal without getting caught. This gets into the concept of Orange and Blue morality where the moral values are seemingly illogical or abhorrent or perhaps just odd.

    Blue and Orange Morality - Television Tropes & Idioms
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  10. #300
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    Re: morality

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrylek View Post
    I assume no such thing. The question was whether an objective morality system (not based on the authority of gods or dictators, societal consensus, or personal maneuvering in pursuit of fame, pleasure etc) does exist. Yes, it does. Obviously, not everyone is accustomed to it, and plenty of people will reject it on the spot - as incompatible with their own values.

    English language does exist objectively, and is a smashing success, as lingua franca of our times. It doesn't mean, of course, that everyone in the world speaks English - or wants to.
    Humans are pleasure-seekers. That pleasure is subjective. You still have yet to present how it is objective and what basis you are using.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrylek View Post
    I know, I know: You have all evidence you need to believe that you are sentient and possess the ability to choose. And I bet you treasure that ability. Not moving to North Korea or Iran any time soon.

    As for all the other people...Who knows, we may be zombies, or robots, or - how about that? - spurious figments of your imagination.

    Quite some imagination you've got there. So, only 90% jokingly, do you think you are God?
    The second question regards solipsism - a philosophic wasteland. Do I think I'm "god?" Well, I exist, so no. But in all seriousness, we are each our own "god" if that makes sense.
    Quote Originally Posted by X Factor View Post
    I've never denied my own hackish tendencies
    Quote Originally Posted by Pin dÁr View Post
    scientific by itself isn't enough of course.
    Quote Originally Posted by blaxshep View Post
    Not all Nazis were bad people

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