View Poll Results: Should society dissuade incompetent people from producing children?

Voters
24. You may not vote on this poll
  • No, reproduction is sacrosanct, people have absolute freedom to reproduce and make others raise them

    11 45.83%
  • Yes/no, mandatory reproductive control for only the most severely/permanently disabled

    4 16.67%
  • Yes/no, offer money for sterilization and/or long-term birth control measures

    8 33.33%
  • Yes/no, mandatory birth control and/or sterilization for active severe substance addicts

    4 16.67%
  • Yes, require some sort of permit for having children

    2 8.33%
  • Sort of, implement two-child policy

    2 8.33%
  • Other (explain)

    4 16.67%
Multiple Choice Poll.
Page 8 of 11 FirstFirst ... 678910 ... LastLast
Results 71 to 80 of 102

Thread: Should society dissuade people from reproducing children they can't raise? How?

  1. #71
    Sage

    Join Date
    May 2011
    Last Seen
    Today @ 12:56 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    8,180

    Re: Should society dissuade people from reproducing children they can't raise? How?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    The options were heavily tilted in the direction of forced or incentivized sterilization practices. I do not want us to go down that dark road of human rights violations again,
    We are on a dark road of human rights violations, currently, it's just that the particular humans whose rights are violated are newborns whose parents abuse drugs, abuse them, and can't afford to provide any of what they need. Children are inherently the most rightfully deserving of their needs being met, and we stand by idly and watch as addict mothers and fathers abuse their fetuses with drugs and then need life-long taxpayer support to provide for that dysfunctional family.

    Human rights are being neglected when it comes to the sanctity of reproduction vs. the rights of children. We have such an irrational visceral reaction to reproduction control that we allow babies to be permanently damaged and then require strangers to pay for the consequences.
    Last edited by Neomalthusian; 05-04-13 at 10:57 PM.

  2. #72
    Cheese
    Aunt Spiker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Sasnakra
    Last Seen
    09-10-16 @ 06:10 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    28,433

    Re: Should society dissuade people from reproducing children they can't raise? How?

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    Try to suspend auto-outrage before answering and responding.

    Every state has an administrative agency charged with temporarily suspending, and/or petitioning for extinguishment of, parental rights if those parents neglect their children's basic needs.

    The act of producing a child generates a legal obligation to provide for its basic needs. Failure to do so can result in the extinguishment of parental rights. Therefore, a person who is fertile but otherwise has demonstrable inability to provide basic minimum care to the child is capable creating a financial and legal liability that it can transfer onto others without their consent.

    Why do taxpayers have to stand by and watch as people produce liabilities that they can shovel off onto others? How is this justifiable, and what should be done about it?
    If someone has been found to be severely abusive to children in the past or have committed infanticide or murdered their children intentionally - then I fully support forced sterilization OR taking away any and all children they have immediately and disallowing guardianship, adoption (etc) in the future and barring them from working with children/near children.

    No sense in enabling their heinous behavior just because nature has its way.
    A screaming comes across the sky.
    It has happened before, but there is nothing to compare it to now.
    Pynchon - Gravity's Rainbow

  3. #73
    versus the world
    Surtr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    The greatest planet in the world.
    Last Seen
    06-10-14 @ 03:54 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    7,017

    Re: Should society dissuade people from reproducing children they can't raise? How?

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    Try to suspend auto-outrage before answering and responding.

    Every state has an administrative agency charged with temporarily suspending, and/or petitioning for extinguishment of, parental rights if those parents neglect their children's basic needs.

    The act of producing a child generates a legal obligation to provide for its basic needs. Failure to do so can result in the extinguishment of parental rights. Therefore, a person who is fertile but otherwise has demonstrable inability to provide basic minimum care to the child is capable creating a financial and legal liability that it can transfer onto others without their consent.

    Why do taxpayers have to stand by and watch as people produce liabilities that they can shovel off onto others? How is this justifiable, and what should be done about it?
    We don't need the state to enforce birth control and sterilization. We can start by returning to the value of family, and using extremely strong peer pressure against loose sexual conduct that results in unwanted pregnancies. This is a societal issue, and one only society can fix, not government. It's starts with the home, and the family. It starts with returning to actual values, and morals. That's what we're missing, and that's what we need to get back.
    I love the NSA. It's like having a secret fan-base you will never see, but they're there, watching everything you write and it makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside knowing that I may be some person's only form of unconstitutional entertainment one night.

  4. #74
    Sage

    Join Date
    May 2011
    Last Seen
    Today @ 12:56 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    8,180

    Re: Should society dissuade people from reproducing children they can't raise? How?

    Quote Originally Posted by Surtr View Post
    We don't need the state to enforce birth control and sterilization. We can start by returning to the value of family, and using extremely strong peer pressure against loose sexual conduct that results in unwanted pregnancies. This is a societal issue, and one only society can fix, not government. It's starts with the home, and the family. It starts with returning to actual values, and morals. That's what we're missing, and that's what we need to get back.
    Your response echoes several others that have been provided thus far, which essentially says fix families rather than restrict them. This is a politically correct answer, not to say it's a bad one per se, because I do agree with it, and I have a tendency to very much agree with the others who have given this answer, but the question then becomes "how?" How do we suddenly return to this? What do we actually DO to change our culture?

    Specifically, for example, what would your plan do about the 22-year old train-wreck polysubstance addict who is having unprotected sex as often as possible, with as many men (who are also addicts) as possible?

    Some babies are being abused and permanently neurologically damaged from the moment of conception onward. Why are all human rights subject to restriction in certain cases, except this one, which is sacrosanct?

  5. #75
    versus the world
    Surtr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    The greatest planet in the world.
    Last Seen
    06-10-14 @ 03:54 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    7,017

    Re: Should society dissuade people from reproducing children they can't raise? How?

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    Your response echoes several others that have been provided thus far, which essentially says fix families rather than restrict them. This is a politically correct answer, not to say it's a bad one per se, because I do agree with it, and I have a tendency to very much agree with the others who have given this answer, but the question then becomes "how?" How do we suddenly return to this? What do we actually DO to change our culture?

    Specifically, for example, what would your plan do about the 22-year old train-wreck polysubstance addict who is having unprotected sex as often as possible, with as many men (who are also addicts) as possible?

    Some babies are being abused and permanently neurologically damaged from the moment of conception onward. Why are all human rights subject to restriction in certain cases, except this one, which is sacrosanct?
    I don't have an answer that doesn't involve the parents manning up and beating the **** out of their druggie son, or the abusive mother, which probably isn't the best course of action. I'm not exactly great parent material myself, which is why I chose a long time ago not to have children.

    However, forcing abortions and sterilizations is inherently wrong on every level. What's the criteria for sterilization? How do they determine who goes under the knife to have their organs forcibly removed from their bodies? What if they make a mistake and permanently damage an innocent person? What if all they need is just a little growing up, and given the chance, would turn out to be wonderful parents? You can't give someone back their reproductive abilities, and we may as well just be putting them up against a wall to shoot them.
    I love the NSA. It's like having a secret fan-base you will never see, but they're there, watching everything you write and it makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside knowing that I may be some person's only form of unconstitutional entertainment one night.

  6. #76
    Sage

    Join Date
    May 2011
    Last Seen
    Today @ 12:56 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    8,180

    Re: Should society dissuade people from reproducing children they can't raise? How?

    Quote Originally Posted by Surtr View Post
    I don't have an answer that doesn't involve the parents manning up and beating the **** out of their druggie son, or the abusive mother, which probably isn't the best course of action. I'm not exactly great parent material myself, which is why I chose a long time ago not to have children.

    However, forcing abortions and sterilizations is inherently wrong on every level.
    What about taking children away from their parents? I mean that obviously goes against human nature. It causes such psychological distress in parents to see their children taken away from them. We see this throughout the animal kingdom among all species that care for their offspring. But as a society we do this because we recognize children inherently have rights not to be abused or neglected.

    What's the criteria for sterilization? How do they determine who goes under the knife to have their organs forcibly removed from their bodies? What if they make a mistake and permanently damage an innocent person? What if all they need is just a little growing up, and given the chance, would turn out to be wonderful parents?
    Certainly a valid question. Long-term birth control?

    You can't give someone back their reproductive abilities, and we may as well just be putting them up against a wall to shoot them.
    That's not true.

  7. #77
    Professor
    marywollstonecraft's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Last Seen
    08-14-13 @ 09:38 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    1,317

    Re: Should society dissuade people from reproducing children they can't raise? How?

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    How do our courts currently decide whose parental rights to terminate?

    Surely you could think of some fairly no-brainer examples of people who should not be getting pregnant and having/raising children. Polysubstance addicts, for example?

    Truthfully the answer to your question is "I don't know," which was why I introduced a few ideas in the poll, and welcomed more/other ideas.
    temporary removal is one thing, but the problem with finding a more permanent solution is that once you start deeming who is fit and proper to be a parent, you end up having to draw lines. and where should these lines be drawn?

    there are some fairly obvious cases - but do we know that the addict can never redeem herself?

    Can we be 100% sure that the young teenage parent who is not coping now will ALWAYS be an inadequate parent?

    In my experience you can't be sure. You also need to be really careful when your personal understanding of things determine what is/isn't right for others.

    My cousin's late wife was removed from her mother (along with two younger siblings) when she was eight, and sent as a child migrant to another country. Her mother had to give her children up. her husband (who now probably would have been diagnosed as suffering from PTSD after his wartime experiences) had walked out on her and she had no way of supporting them.

    "for the good of the children so they could make a new life" her mothers letters were never passed on. In her late forties, she located one of her brothers, and some distant relatives. her mother had died a few years before. her baby brother had "failed to thrive."

    who determined that her mother was not fit? what gives anyone the right to judge these cases?

    far better we work as a community TOGETHER to help the most vulnerable members of society, otherwise we should not be referring to ourselves as civilized.
    Every political good carried to the extreme must be productive of evil.

  8. #78
    Professor
    marywollstonecraft's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Last Seen
    08-14-13 @ 09:38 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    1,317

    Re: Should society dissuade people from reproducing children they can't raise? How?

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    Your response echoes several others that have been provided thus far, which essentially says fix families rather than restrict them. This is a politically correct answer, not to say it's a bad one per se, because I do agree with it, and I have a tendency to very much agree with the others who have given this answer, but the question then becomes "how?" How do we suddenly return to this? What do we actually DO to change our culture?

    Specifically, for example, what would your plan do about the 22-year old train-wreck polysubstance addict who is having unprotected sex as often as possible, with as many men (who are also addicts) as possible?

    Some babies are being abused and permanently neurologically damaged from the moment of conception onward. Why are all human rights subject to restriction in certain cases, except this one, which is sacrosanct?
    you do raise some good points, but as with many of these questions, the answer is never simple.

    I think the answer will lie in a suite of strategies. It may include financial incentives NOT to have children. It may include better access to contraception and abortion, it may include education, counseling and or long term therapy, parenting classes, practical supports and better ante natal and neonatal services for at risk mothers/infants ... and a number of other practical approaches.
    Every political good carried to the extreme must be productive of evil.

  9. #79
    Sage

    Join Date
    May 2011
    Last Seen
    Today @ 12:56 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    8,180

    Re: Should society dissuade people from reproducing children they can't raise? How?

    Quote Originally Posted by marywollstonecraft View Post
    temporary removal is one thing, but the problem with finding a more permanent solution is that once you start deeming who is fit and proper to be a parent, you end up having to draw lines. and where should these lines be drawn?

    there are some fairly obvious cases - but do we know that the addict can never redeem herself?
    That's like asking if a child can ever truly get over the PTSD his/her parents caused him/her. The answer is "who knows," but the duty to protect children is, arguably, society's. Since we are willing to make exceptions to ALL rights in certain cases, why don't we ever make exceptions to reproductive rights?

    Again, I ask you, where do our courts currently draw the line between who can be a child's guardian and who cannot? They do determine these things currently, I assure you.

    Can we be 100% sure that the young teenage parent who is not coping now will ALWAYS be an inadequate parent?
    No, but is that hail mary worth the most basic health and safety of a baby?

    who determined that her mother was not fit? what gives anyone the right to judge these cases?
    What gives us the right to ignore and neglect an abused child?

  10. #80
    Professor
    marywollstonecraft's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Last Seen
    08-14-13 @ 09:38 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    1,317

    Re: Should society dissuade people from reproducing children they can't raise? How?

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    That's like asking if a child can ever truly get over the PTSD his/her parents caused him/her. The answer is "who knows," but the duty to protect children is, arguably, society's. Since we are willing to make exceptions to ALL rights in certain cases, why don't we ever make exceptions to reproductive rights?

    Again, I ask you, where do our courts currently draw the line between who can be a child's guardian and who cannot? They do determine these things currently, I assure you.



    No, but is that hail mary worth the most basic health and safety of a baby?



    What gives us the right to ignore and neglect an abused child?
    Can you point to anywhere where I have claimed that we SHOULD ignore and neglect an abused child?

    as I said in another post - the answer is never simple.

    The fact is that many strategies that may go a long way to addressing these issues are always put in the "too expensive" basket.

    Many cases I know of that involves serious child abuse also involves overloaded child protection caseworkers, or caseworkers that haven't had adequate training.

    Many involve parents whose mental health has been severely compromised - often by their own traumatic childhoods, and a lack of mental health and practical support services to help them cope.

    Some of the strategies that I also outlined in a previous post cost money. and taxpayers and governments just don't want to go there. They often prefer to put their heads in the sand when addressing the issues comes with a price tag - even if the long term cost of inaction is far greater.
    Every political good carried to the extreme must be productive of evil.

Page 8 of 11 FirstFirst ... 678910 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •