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Death penalty for rapist and pedophiles?

Ikari said:
Human life has intrinsic value




Life in prison without parole does the same for the general public as the death penalty.
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That intrinsic value isn't set in stone. And quite frankly, a rapist has a human value close to zero in my opinion and the value saved by preventing them from committing any further acts far outweighs any value they are losing in the process.
 
Ikari said:
And I do not believe your opinions give proper cause to use grandiose government force against the individual.
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The poor poor rapist. They just can't make it in this world, can they? :roll:
 
ReformCollege said:
The poor poor rapist. They just can't make it in this world, can they? :roll:
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It's not just the rapist we have to be concerned about. We have to acknowledge the lack of perfect knowledge and that innocent people will also be sentenced. If you sentence them to life in prison, there's always a chance that you discover the wrong deed; which is not available with the death penalty. Give also the cost of the death penalty and that it offers no additional safety for the public in general, and we begin to see an archaic and unnecessary system.
 
ReformCollege said:
That intrinsic value isn't set in stone. And quite frankly, a rapist has a human value close to zero in my opinion and the value saved by preventing them from committing any further acts far outweighs any value they are losing in the process.
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That's like saying the innate and inalienable rights of the individual "isn't set in stone". In essence, it means you do not understand what the words mean. Innate worth means that human life innately holds worth. And no, that isn't subject to the ramblings of emotional fools trying to excuse their use of government for their personal revenge. There is an absolute scale, and human life has worth. I don't care what you think it is, what you feel it is, what your opinion on it is; it changes not the fact and your opinion is not proper argument for use of government force.

You people just look at the individual case. "Oh this guy should die because of X", but you never consider the actual, factual system you are calling into play which isn't limited to your trite and composed individual circumstances but rather falls under an entire demographic and statistic of systematic distribution. One guy may have to die, but if you kill an innocent to get that guy, then you may not use the court system.
 
Ikari said:
It's not just the rapist we have to be concerned about. We have to acknowledge the lack of perfect knowledge and that innocent people will also be sentenced. If you sentence them to life in prison, there's always a chance that you discover the wrong deed; which is not available with the death penalty. Give also the cost of the death penalty and that it offers no additional safety for the public in general, and we begin to see an archaic and unnecessary system.
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I wasn't arguing for the death penalty.

Just for castration for serial rapists and pedophiles.
 
Arbo said:
That kinda avoids the question. No, life doesn't have any 'intrinsic' value, unless one believes in mythology and such. When you work, raise a family, help others, you generally have value... when you murder, rape and molest, you have ZERO value to society.
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Unless one believes that empathy, intelligence, humanity has worth. You're just making crap up to excuse your blood lust.

Arbo said:
Has anyone in prison, on a life without parole sentence, killed a guard? That the possibility exists means that no, they are not removed from society.
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Within prison, there are plenty of reforms we can make to increase safety, but a lot of that will take a major shift likely centered upon not throwing so many people into jail in the first place (we jail more of our population per capita than commie China). We do not need the death penalty to pick up the slack; we need properly constrained and responsible government.
 
Ikari said:
That's like saying the innate and inalienable rights of the individual "isn't set in stone". In essence, it means you do not understand what the words mean. Innate worth means that human life innately holds worth. And no, that isn't subject to the ramblings of emotional fools trying to excuse their use of government for their personal revenge. There is an absolute scale, and human life has worth. I don't care what you think it is, what you feel it is, what your opinion on it is; it changes not the fact and your opinion is not proper argument for use of government force.

You people just look at the individual case. "Oh this guy should die because of X", but you never consider the actual, factual system you are calling into play which isn't limited to your trite and composed individual circumstances but rather falls under an entire demographic and statistic of systematic distribution. One guy may have to die, but if you kill an innocent to get that guy, then you may not use the court system.
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Human life has worth, but some are definitely worth more then others.

I don't think every 19 year old who has sex with a 16 year old should have their nuts chopped off. But I do think for certain serial rapists or Jerry Sandusky types, that most certainly should be an option in any case.
 
ReformCollege said:
I wasn't arguing for the death penalty.

Just for castration for serial rapists and pedophiles.
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That's cruel and unusual, I will not excuse this form of revenge mutilation through our government and judicial system.
 
Ikari said:
Unless one believes that empathy, intelligence, humanity has worth. You're just making crap up to excuse your blood lust.
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I don't think a rapist has much of any of those qualities.
 
ReformCollege said:
Human life has worth, but some are definitely worth more then others.

I don't think every 19 year old who has sex with a 16 year old should have their nuts chopped off. But I do think for certain serial rapists or Jerry Sandusky types, that most certainly should be an option in any case.
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And either you make is such that these cases can net life in prison, or you accept the limitations and finite punishments of government.
 
ReformCollege said:
I don't think a rapist has much of any of those qualities.
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Exactly you don't, you're caught up in the emotion and hysteria; you are not capable of thinking about this rationally.
 
ReformCollege said:
That intrinsic value isn't set in stone. And quite frankly, a rapist has a human value close to zero in my opinion and the value saved by preventing them from committing any further acts far outweighs any value they are losing in the process.
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I think you mean 'inherent value'. That's the term we used in Europe, as opposed to intrinsic value. IIRC, Americans prefer another word but the terminology is the same. Inherent value is the benefit to a system (legal, ecologic, etc). Intrinsic value is, well, not negotiable.

Despite my ascribing to Deep Ecology in many aspects, this (a belief in intrinsic value) is one of the issues I disagree. I do not believe in intrinsic value, only inherent; however, I believe all entities have inherent value (the problem being that it is not always obvious).
 
Ikari said:
It's not just the rapist we have to be concerned about. We have to acknowledge the lack of perfect knowledge and that innocent people will also be sentenced. If you sentence them to life in prison, there's always a chance that you discover the wrong deed; which is not available with the death penalty. Give also the cost of the death penalty and that it offers no additional safety for the public in general, and we begin to see an archaic and unnecessary system.
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There are always casualties of war. What you do is fix the system so it is less likely anyone innocent will be sentenced, remove the endless appeals that the sissies have built into the system, and get to cleaning the earth of worthless scum.
 
Ikari said:
There is an absolute scale, and human life has worth.
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Again, now that you have moved from value to worth, what is the 'worth' of a serial rapist? Of a repeat offender child abuser?

I am hearing a lot of generalities and avoidance. If you claim they have 'worth', WHAT IS IT?

Is it because of your beliefs in myths, or is your belief based in something more concrete and real?
 
Arbo said:
There are always casualties of war. What you do is fix the system so it is less likely anyone innocent will be sentenced, remove the endless appeals that the sissies have built into the system, and get to cleaning the earth of worthless scum.
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Mmmmm, OK. Prison is war, it's ok to kill innocent people because we have to get to the guilty. Why have all the protections and inefficiencies specifically built into the system to slow it down, make the State prove its claims, to place emphasis on the rights and liberties of the individual instead of power of state? I mean, it's just preventing us from getting to the bad guys. Sick puppies are sick.
 
Ikari said:
Exactly you don't, you're caught up in the emotion and hysteria; you are not capable of thinking about this rationally.
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Man, that's outright funny. You say that these scum have worth, and refuse to define it, and continue to try and spin things around.
 
Arbo said:
Again, now that you have moved from value to worth, what is the 'worth' of a serial rapist? Of a repeat offender child abuser?

I am hearing a lot of generalities and avoidance. If you claim they have 'worth', WHAT IS IT?

Is it because of your beliefs in myths, or is your belief based in something more concrete and real?
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All humans are humans, and that is a fundamental equality. And because of that, we have natural rights. Natural rights are innate and inalienable.
 
Arbo said:
Man, that's outright funny. You say that these scum have worth, and refuse to define it, and continue to try and spin things around.
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It's because I'm looking at the system removed from eyes of hate. It is rational and logical argument which leads to this point.
 
Ikari said:
All humans are humans, and that is a fundamental equality. And because of that, we have natural rights. Natural rights are innate and inalienable.
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Man, you are moving those goal posts all over the field.

Let me know when you can answer the question: "what worth does a repeat offending child molester have?"
 
Arbo said:
And should be put down... Why you refuse it is still a mystery.
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Mmmm, it may be true, but you may not like the particular outcome. Despots and madman the world round may infringe so heavily upon the rights and liberties of the individual that they must be put down. You should try to consider which side of that equation you're on.
 
Arbo said:
Man, you are moving those goal posts all over the field.

Let me know when you can answer the question: "what worth does a repeat offending child molester have?"
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It's the same as I've said all along. Human life has intrinsic value. A "repeat offending child molester" (note you're still using the extremes rather than the statistics; but whatever). Which means that the child molester has the same base worth as any other human being in existence.
 
Ikari said:
It's because I'm looking at the system removed from eyes of hate. It is rational and logical argument which leads to this point.
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I know you want to try and paint those that disagree as hateful, mean, and other things. It doesn't fly. There is no emotion here... those that commit certain crimes in society have removed their 'right' to be a part of humanity. There is no fixing them.

No, it is not rational and logical argument, it is that libertarian 'thing' of not saying what you mean, and not standing up for anything.
 
Ikari said:
It's the same as I've said all along.
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You have said nothing all along. You keep dodging.

What is the value such a person has?

What is the basis of your belief that such scum have any value?

Why will you not specifically define what the 'value' or 'worth' of such a person is?
 
Arbo said:
I know you want to try and paint those that disagree as hateful, mean, and other things. It doesn't fly. There is no emotion here... those that commit certain crimes in society have removed their 'right' to be a part of humanity. There is no fixing them.

No, it is not rational and logical argument, it is that libertarian 'thing' of not saying what you mean, and not standing up for anything.
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Those who commit certain crimes can stand before a jury of their peers and their peers may decide their fate. If it's finite, then it's finite. And even then it's restricted as infinite government force may not be called down. There is various amount of government force able to be called down in response to actions; but it is not unlimited and any system we enact, we must understand the repercussions of.

Your last sentence was just desperate attack, and was embarrassing. Please try not to fall to such pathetic displays of reflex.
 
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