View Poll Results: McCarthyism should be promoted in America

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  • What's McCarthyism?

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Thread: McCarthyism

  1. #31
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    Re: McCarthyism

    Quote Originally Posted by rathi View Post
    Many people have repeated that nonsense on the hope that a lie said enough time will be become truth. Unfortunately for you, I have actual facts with sources proving the opposite.
    Return to Responses, Reflections and Occasional Papers // Return to Historical Writings
    Old info reheated without taking into consideration all available information. Venona wasn't the only source, yet your doc seems to only consider it. We now have access to old Russian KGB files. Again, you're wrong about McCarthy.

    All told, some 350 Americans turn out to have worked for Soviet intelligence during World War II — a
    time when we were allies. American counter-intelligence eventually identified more than 125 of these
    agents — but were never able to nail down who the other 200 plus were. Virtually every one of the people
    accused of being a Soviet agent by Elizabeth Bentley and Whittaker Chambers — both reviled and
    denounced for making false charges not only by political partisans in the 1940s but by historians ever since
    — turns out to have been a Soviet spy.

    No Federal agency was immune to Soviet penetration. There were at least 16 Soviet agents in the OSS,
    predecessor to the CIA, including Duncan Lee, chief counsel to General William Donovan. The Office of
    war Information, the Board of Economic Warfare, United Nations Relief and Rehabilitation
    Administration, War Production Board, War Department, Signal Corps, Censorship office, the Justice
    Department were all penetrated. In the State Department Alger Hiss was not the only Soviet spy. Larry
    Duggan, in charge of Latin American affairs, was an agent. Lauchlin Currie, one of six presidential
    assistants, provided information. The most highly placed spy was Harry Dexter White, the number two man
    the Treasury Department and one of the architects of the post-war international financial order — he
    designed the World Bank, the International Monetary Fund and the Bretton Woods agreement. The KGB so
    valued White’s information — including meetings at the founding UN conference where he revealed the
    American negotiating strategy — that when he hinted at leaving government service because of financial
    pressures, the KGB offered to pay his daughter’s college tuition.

    Source

  2. #32
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    Re: McCarthyism

    Quote Originally Posted by clownboy View Post
    Old info reheated without taking into consideration all available information. Venona wasn't the only source, yet your doc seems to only consider it. We now have access to old Russian KGB files. Again, you're wrong about McCarthy.
    You didn't even read your own source.

    But if McCarthy was right about some of the large issues, he was wildly wrong on virtually all of the
    details.
    There is no indication that he had even a hint of the Venona decryptions, so he did not base his
    accusations on the information in them. Indeed, virtually none of the people that McCarthy claimed or
    alleged were Soviet agents turn up in Venona

  3. #33
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    Re: McCarthyism

    Quote Originally Posted by rathi View Post
    You didn't even read your own source.
    Oh I did. Your position seems to be that even though he was later proven correct about the problem, he was wrong on the details. I'd agree with that, but that's not the consistent with the "McCarthyism" slur which intimates he was wrong about the problem. The list was never released back then. In fact, the authors of your doc are inferring that is actually McCarthy's list.

    Btw, the whole list thing comes from a claim made in a private political stump speech McCarthy made twice, each time catered to a certain audience.

  4. #34
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    Re: McCarthyism

    Quote Originally Posted by clownboy View Post
    Oh I did. Your position seems to be that even though he was later proven correct about the problem, he was wrong on the details. I'd agree with that, but that's not the consistent with the "McCarthyism" slur which intimates he was wrong about the problem. The list was never released back then. In fact, the authors of your doc are inferring that is actually McCarthy's list.
    The fact that there were spies in the state department has never been dispute. The problem with McCarthy is that he had no idea who the actual spies were and he instead targeted innocent people violating the basic principles of freedom of association and innocent until proven guilty. The fact that his abuse of innocent was people rationalized with a real problem doesn't make McCarthy right, it makes him doubly wrong by diverting attention away from legitimate investigation of spies to his spiteful self-promotion.

    Btw, the whole list thing comes from a claim made in a private political stump speech McCarthy made twice, each time catered to a certain audience.
    That only proves how full of crap McCarthy was. You can hardly blame the author for not using a definitive list when no such list actually existed.

  5. #35
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    Re: McCarthyism

    Quote Originally Posted by rathi View Post
    The fact that there were spies in the state department has never been dispute. The problem with McCarthy is that he had no idea who the actual spies were and he instead targeted innocent people violating the basic principles of freedom of association and innocent until proven guilty. The fact that his abuse of innocent was people rationalized with a real problem doesn't make McCarthy right, it makes him doubly wrong by diverting attention away from legitimate investigation of spies to his spiteful self-promotion.
    Again, you're conflating McCarthy with the HUAC which he had nothing to do with. The senate hearings which McCarthy presided over were for government employees in positions that could compromise the security of the nation. They were all under contract and oath that made their political associations matters of state inquiry.

    Far different standard than going after the Hollywood set.
    Quote Originally Posted by rathi View Post
    That only proves how full of crap McCarthy was. You can hardly blame the author for not using a definitive list when no such list actually existed.
    If no such definitive list ever existed how can you use this one to prove he was wrong?

  6. #36
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    Re: McCarthyism

    McCarthyism is a very poor choice of a phrase, and he was correct. They found several spies in our government.

    See the declassified "Project Venona" papers.

  7. #37
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    Re: McCarthyism

    It is never a good thing to go after people for simply being of a particular political group. There should be proof that they are actually doing something against the US in order to justify accusations, particularly accusations from our Congress.

    On a side note, I share my birth name (not completely but 2/3) with one of the most famous spies of that time.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  8. #38
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    Re: McCarthyism

    I don't believe in thought crimes, killing people for their beliefs is worse than if their beliefs became law and ruined the country.

    In trying to protect the constitutional form of government, you'd be ****ting on the constitution. Its not enough to survive, one must remain worthy of survival.
    Haymarket's "support" of the 2nd Amendment, a right he believes we never had.
    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    no. You cannot lose rights you do not have in the first place. There is no such thing as the right to have any weapon of your choice regardless of any other consideration. It simply does not exist.

  9. #39
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    Re: McCarthyism

    Quote Originally Posted by rathi View Post
    The problem with McCarthy is that he had no idea who the actual spies were and he instead targeted innocent people violating the basic principles of freedom of association and innocent until proven guilty. The fact that his abuse of innocent was people rationalized with a real problem doesn't make McCarthy right, it makes him doubly wrong by diverting attention away from legitimate investigation of spies to his spiteful self-promotion.

    That only proves how full of crap McCarthy was. You can hardly blame the author for not using a definitive list when no such list actually existed.
    Really?

    I suggest you cross reference this list of innocent people named by McCarthy, with the declassified Venona Project.

  10. #40
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    Re: McCarthyism

    Quote Originally Posted by rathi View Post
    Hitler wasn't put in prison because he was a social pariah, he was put in prison because he committed treason.
    Neither communists in Russia nor communist sympathizers in America were "social pariahs' either. Typically, they were upper or middle class, and 'differences' were entirely political.

    Quote Originally Posted by rathi View Post
    The nation was undergoing a massive increase in economic prosperity coming off a victory in WW2. Its literally the exact opposite of the conditions in Russia or Germany.
    Things change. Russia had economic and social conditions rapidly improving before the WWI. Then the war derailed the whole country. In the case of 1950s, the wars were underway - both the Cold War, and the really hot one, in Korea. The USSR was ascendant, just having installed puppet regimes in half of Eurasia. The economy was doing well in the Ike's USA, but they also faced an existential threat we hardly can imagine now.

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