• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Do You Have a Right to a Job?

Do You Have a Right to a Job?


  • Total voters
    128
I agree that licensing requirements have gotten ridiculous. Here, surveying land, installing an alarm, or even cutting hair without a license are criminal offenses. :roll:
Surveying should require a license just as much as architects and engineers. You really think those $100 hand held GPS units are worth a crap for surveying?
 
That's pretty messed up. The hairdresser license is a symbol of everything wrong with our political system. Think how much better off the poor would be if the barriers to entry for the market were not so high? All you need is a pair of scissors and you could start a business cutting hair from home, but for the government which requires you to pay to attend a hairdressing academy (who probably paid them kickbacks) for the privilege of paying to obtain a license. If you're broke then all of a sudden a job that you could have had for the cost of a pair of scissors is now prohibitively expensive.
Not so funny when the comb and scissors you use spread lice. There are reasons for the regulations we have and none of them have to do with kick-backs or the government making money off of it. You want to cut someones hair without a license, do it to your friends in your kitchen, bathroom, or on the deck.
 
My brother's girlfriend goes to beauty school. There are reasons behind it, mainly reasons concerning hygiene.

Personally though, I'm fine with licenses but I think they shouldn't charge a fee. I don't think someone should be charged to keep the credentials necessary to work in their field. In some areas licensing is crazy expensive, I know for me it will probably cost over $1000 to get my first license after graduating and over $500 yearly thereafter. That's just not reasonable in my opinion.
I don't know what it is you do but that does sound excessive to me considering my license was only $50 every two years. It really all depends on the profession, though, and the complexity of the subject or knowledge required for oversight.
 
I am starting to realize that people like to bait me into extremes only to use it as ridicule. Yes, this applies to healthcare as well, but of you think it through them you will realize that the lack of government licensure does not mean a lack of certification. An absence of government mandated licensure will mean the market will provide more robust third party certifications for healthcare professionals. It would not be the chaos you envision, the market will provide.
Bull! Missouri surveyors had a system for decades and it was a disaster! Industry cannot and will not police itself. If we learned nothing else from the Crash of '08 it should have been that.
 
I want the government to get the eff out of the way. Why are we afraid of utilizing our own natural resources to eliminate our dependence on foreign energy as an example. Our current account account deficit is akin to a tax on everyone that purchases fuel or uses electricity produced by conventional means...
I couldn't agree more about fuel and I think it's damn stupid of us to let oil go up in smoke - but I don't get the electricity part. AFAIK we supply the materials for electrical power generation - or we could if we wanted to. Buying rare earth's from someone else is a good thing to me. At some point they'll run out, just like everything else, so why not use up their supply first? :)
 
How did our ancestors ever survive before others employed them and paid them money?
You want to bring back Locke's commons, where people can make their own living off the land with nothing but their body and wit? I'm good with that. Who's land shall we use?


Many of our ancestors didn't survive. Is that your answer, let them die in the street?
 
Um, lets play this out....lets say you are right....that these "private market" regulating entities were cheaper (of course, they would have to be profitable, but that is assumed), they would still require yearly fees to exist, so there would be some costs involved....but guess what, even in that regime, you would still have a black market because someone is always trying to avoid cost and authority.

Um, it would t be a black market then, because it would be legal.
 
Not so funny when the comb and scissors you use spread lice. There are reasons for the regulations we have and none of them have to do with kick-backs or the government making money off of it. You want to cut someones hair without a license, do it to your friends in your kitchen, bathroom, or on the deck.

An unhygienic if barber will fail in a free market. Face it, the market works better. Your hand-wringing nanny-statism notwithstanding. People do not need to be managed like children.

It is possible to get lice at a barber now. It happens a lot, always will. It will be less likely in a free market since the market incentivized success whereas government licensure encourages an attitude of "just good enough.". I'll take a market system over government coercion any day, as would any rational, unemotional person. Fear drives people to government but the government's promises of safety are illusory.
 
Last edited:
An unhygienic if barber will fail in a free market. Face it, the market works better. Your hand-wringing nanny-statism notwithstanding. People do not need to be managed like children.
Oh, I'm sure they'd fail eventually. The question is, how much damage will they do in the mean time? But, hey, I understand you don't give a crap about that. You think it'll all be settled in court. Yeah - OJ was innocent you know.


It is possible to get lice at a barber now. It happens a lot, always will. It will be less likely in a free market since the market incentivized success whereas government licensure encourages an attitude of "just good enough.". I'll take a market system over government coercion any day, as would any rational, unemotional person. Fear drives people to government but the government's promises of safety are illusory.
Funny, 50 years and I never have - and that's just using whatever shop is closest. :shrug:


Bull. That spew doesn't work on me. Oh sure, in the perfect little world where everyone behaves the same and are perfect little bots it might work but, I hate to break this to you, our survival depends on us being different from one another. Some people will take advantage of other people one way or another and maybe do a lot of damage in the process - irreversible damage. Financial compensation from some kangaroo court decision with no teeth just isn't enough for some things. What price do you fix on a child's health? What about a father's life? I think the going rate for the death of the Average Joe is about $1M. Who can pay that back? Not some Nickel and Dime plating shop that's been dumping crap in the creek for 3 years and doesn't even own the building they use. Sorry, it's a Fantasy Land you live in. You've been sold a dream that doesn't exist in reality and may never exist.
 
Oh, I'm sure they'd fail eventually. The question is, how much damage will they do in the mean time? But, hey, I understand you don't give a crap about that. You think it'll all be settled in court. Yeah - OJ was innocent you know.


Funny, 50 years and I never have - and that's just using whatever shop is closest. :shrug:


Bull. That spew doesn't work on me. Oh sure, in the perfect little world where everyone behaves the same and are perfect little bots it might work but, I hate to break this to you, our survival depends on us being different from one another. Some people will take advantage of other people one way or another and maybe do a lot of damage in the process - irreversible damage. Financial compensation from some kangaroo court decision with no teeth just isn't enough for some things. What price do you fix on a child's health? What about a father's life? I think the going rate for the death of the Average Joe is about $1M. Who can pay that back? Not some Nickel and Dime plating shop that's been dumping crap in the creek for 3 years and doesn't even own the building they use. Sorry, it's a Fantasy Land you live in. You've been sold a dream that doesn't exist in reality and may never exist.
It is impossible to discuss this with you since you refuse to be civil.
 
Bull. That spew doesn't work on me. Oh sure, in the perfect little world where everyone behaves the same and are perfect little bots it might work but, I hate to break this to you, our survival depends on us being different from one another. Some people will take advantage of other people one way or another and maybe do a lot of damage in the process - irreversible damage. Financial compensation from some kangaroo court decision with no teeth just isn't enough for some things. What price do you fix on a child's health? What about a father's life? I think the going rate for the death of the Average Joe is about $1M. Who can pay that back? Not some Nickel and Dime plating shop that's been dumping crap in the creek for 3 years and doesn't even own the building they use. Sorry, it's a Fantasy Land you live in. You've been sold a dream that doesn't exist in reality and may never exist.

Anyone can eliminate the potential for getting lice by only going to barbers that have been certified to be hygienic and free of lice.

There's no need to order people about and initiate interpersonal violence against innocent people.
 
APACHERAT;1061722902 But there are some who believe that illegal aliens have a right to take American jobs away from citizens.[/QUOTE said:
If those citizens can't do their jobs well enough to hang on to them, maybe other people (from America or wherever) should have those jobs.

BTW, what is an 'American job' (As opposed to a 'non-American job'.)?

99.9999 percent of those who complain about immigrants have some immigrants in their family tree.

Think about it.




"All of the problems that we face in the United States today can be traced to an unenlightened immigration policy on the part of the American Indian." ~ Pat Paulsen
 
Fear drives people to government but the government's promises of safety are illusory.



Who defeated the Japanese and the Germans in WWII?

Who killed Osama bin Laden?

Case closed.

The Libertarians will never run the U.S. government.
 
The Libertarians will never run the U.S. government.

Fortunately you don't get to decide that. Libertarianism is becoming more popular every day as rational people wake up, and realize that it is not worth giving up fundamental liberty in exchange for illusory safety.

Fear mongering authoritarians have been running the US government for too long, but it is coming to an end.
 
Last edited:
Fortunately you don't get to decide that. Libertarianism is becoming more popular every day as rational people wake up, and realize that it is not worth giving up fundamental liberty in exchange for illusory safety.

Fear mongering authoritarians have been running the US government for too long, but it is coming to an end.



Keep dreaming.
 
You can banter about these details all you want. Employment is still a contract, not a positive right.

...On what basis is any right recognized if not, in some sense, contractually?

The only thing that does or does not make something a right is our recognition between one another (or a ruling bodies recognition) of that thing to be a right.

Whether it's a right or not is agreed upon by the people, and if enough clamor that they have a right to housing, healthcare, free enterprise, free speech, or whatnot then that thing may become or be a right.

Employment can become a right provided enough people demand it be a right, something the government is obligated to ensure people posses in some capacity.

Even in the dystopian fantasy where the federal government employs all the jobless, there still must be terms associated with that employment, and the employee's decision to abide by those terms or not (and refuse the job).

With the following consequences that come from refusing a job, yes. Just as a person who refuses guaranteed healthcare will suffer on their part.

Not sure what that has to do with any of this, but whatever.

Though I gotta admit, I love how you term a society where the jobless can find some sort of relief from their situation a dystopia.

In no way can an employment arrangement be considered a positive right. Thus no one has a right to a job.

I'm not sure you put forth any sort of real logic to support that conclusion.

What you have above is "Well, seeing as employee - employer relationship is a contractual one, then government can't possibly have a mandate to provide for individuals unable to find work, cause if the employee was working for the government- terms and stuff."

What you have above doesn't fit together.
 
...On what basis is any right recognized if not, in some sense, contractually?

Employment is a specific, literal contract. Not a "price you pay for living in a free society social contract" BS.

The only thing that does or does not make something a right is our recognition between one another (or a ruling bodies recognition) of that thing to be a right.

Whether it's a right or not is agreed upon by the people, and if enough clamor that they have a right to housing, healthcare, free enterprise, free speech, or whatnot then that thing may become or be a right.

An example of people discovering they can vote themselves money from the treasury, basically.

Employment can become a right provided enough people demand it be a right, something the government is obligated to ensure people posses in some capacity.

Either it takes the form of any other contract which includes negotiation of terms, offer and acceptance/denial, or it takes the form of welfare. Employment cannot take the form of a right to passively receive it from the external.

Not sure what that has to do with any of this, but whatever.

Yes, I can see that you are having immense difficulty computing the ways in which employment is inherently different than a positive right. In general, the only people with positive rights in this country are children. Not even welfare programs make what they hand out an actual positive right.

What you have above is "Well, seeing as employee - employer relationship is a contractual one, then government can't possibly have a mandate to provide for individuals unable to find work, cause if the employee was working for the government- terms and stuff."

They can "mandate" whatever they want, in this case, to mandate the government to administer a program that "hires" all the nation's jobless, but it would be a toothless and futile mandate, and utter folly.

Positive rights are just a philosophical construct, same way natural rights are a philosophical construct. They don't exist in any literal sense, regardless of how many people clamor. So what we're doing right now is presenting our own philosophies and insinuating the other's is stupid.
 
Last edited:
Anyone can eliminate the potential for getting lice by only going to barbers that have been certified to be hygienic and free of lice.
Hey, I've got some great mortgage packages to sell you! S&P rated them A1 so you must know they're good. :lol:
 
You want to bring back Locke's commons, where people can make their own living off the land with nothing but their body and wit? I'm good with that. Who's land shall we use?

Many of our ancestors didn't survive.

We're here, aren't we? Doesn't make a lot of sense to differentiate then and now in this way.

Is that your answer, let them die in the street?

Humans can survive without social rights. This is self-evident as well as historically supported.

The only reason I can come up with that explains why so many people are clinging so desperately to the federal safety net is that they unconsciously recognize that we're so populated now that we've outgrown the carrying capacity of the ecosystems in which we live and thus rely utterly on the central government to maintain political stability.

Perhaps it's not in fact that people as individuals need their federal government to survive, or that they trust their federal government, it's that they couldn't trust their tens of millions of neighbors in its absence.
 
Last edited:
We're here, aren't we? Doesn't make a lot of sense to differentiate then and now in this way.
You wanted an answer, I gave it to you. "Then" had someplace to go that was at least somewhat fertile and was unowned. "Now" there is no such place.


Humans can survive without social rights. This is self-evident as well as historically supported.

The only reason I can come up with that explains why so many people are clinging so desperately to the federal safety net is that they unconsciously recognize that we're so populated now that we've outgrown the carrying capacity of the ecosystems in which we live and thus rely utterly on the central government to maintain political stability.

Perhaps it's not in fact that people as individuals need their federal government to survive, or that they trust their federal government, it's that they couldn't trust their tens of millions of neighbors in its absence.
Depending on what you mean by "social rights"; Humans can survive without but not nearly as many as with. This is also historically supported, though less self-evident.


People have never trusted strangers because for too long a time strangers were "the enemy". Now that we live in such large numbers, there are untold hundreds of strangers we pass everyday and many of them literally hold our life in their hands (i.e., the other driver we expect to keep within the lines). Without law we cannot exist in such numbers and still maintain the low percentage of deaths from violence we enjoy now compared to then.
 
You wanted an answer, I gave it to you. "Then" had someplace to go that was at least somewhat fertile and was unowned. "Now" there is no such place.

Depending on what you mean by "social rights"; Humans can survive without but not nearly as many as with. This is also historically supported, though less self-evident.

Maybe the goal should not be to multiply our population as much as possible. Support for this follows (provided by you):

People have never trusted strangers because for too long a time strangers were "the enemy". Now that we live in such large numbers, there are untold hundreds of strangers we pass everyday and many of them literally hold our life in their hands (i.e., the other driver we expect to keep within the lines). Without law we cannot exist in such numbers and still maintain the low percentage of deaths from violence we enjoy now compared to then.

I'm not advocating anarchism, but otherwise I do agree with what you say here. There are too many of us everywhere to be able to have the trusting, tight-knit, communalized little societies that I think are most in line with our natures. Our population and complexity, therefore, is very much out of alignment with our natures, and our attempts to create centralized social structures that act as our providers (e.g. of jobs, housing, food, etc.) is compensatory, but in some respects even farther out of alignment with our natures.

We're looking for the least-worst answer here. I think the centralized social planning is at best a bandaid for this predicament, or at worst, directly perpetuating the predicament.
 
Hey, I've got some great mortgage packages to sell you! S&P rated them A1 so you must know they're good. :lol:

Good point. S&P would never survive in a free society.
 
Maybe the goal should not be to multiply our population as much as possible. Support for this follows (provided by you):
I've never said increasing our population was a good thing but there's almost no way to stop it.


I'm not advocating anarchism, but otherwise I do agree with what you say here. There are too many of us everywhere to be able to have the trusting, tight-knit, communalized little societies that I think are most in line with our natures. Our population and complexity, therefore, is very much out of alignment with our natures, and our attempts to create centralized social structures that act as our providers (e.g. of jobs, housing, food, etc.) is compensatory, but in some respects even farther out of alignment with our natures.
Personally, I think suburbia and increased job mobility killed the community feeling in America. Hard to care about the effects of a local policy 5-10 years up the line when you've just moved into an area or are thinking about taking that job 1000 miles away. Centralized government is the only cohesion we have.


We're looking for the least-worst answer here. I think the centralized social planning is at best a bandaid for this predicament, or at worst, directly perpetuating the predicament.
I think it tends to make us think more about other people in our society that live in different situations then we do. And, honestly, I think there's very little "planning" about it. The major ebb and flow of public opinion is what guides (not dictates) law and, in some ways, it always has.
 
Back
Top Bottom