View Poll Results: Do You Have a Right to a Job?

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Thread: Do You Have a Right to a Job?

  1. #431
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    Re: Do You Have a Right to a Job?

    Quote Originally Posted by Federalist View Post
    And do you consider it justifiable for some people in a community who have arrived at a consensus to initiate violence against a person who has harmed no person or no person's property?
    A man with his finger on the trigger and pointing a loaded gun at someone hasn't necessarily harmed anyone or anyone's property, either. Should he be allowed to pull the trigger before we try to disarm him or stop him in some other way?
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  2. #432
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    Re: Do You Have a Right to a Job?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    A man with his finger on the trigger and pointing a loaded gun at someone hasn't necessarily harmed anyone or anyone's property, either. Should he be allowed to pull the trigger before we try to stop him?
    Yes, I would consider it justified respond with violence to person in the process of committing assault.

    So in my question above, when I say "harmed", lets also include those people who are in the act of doing so.

  3. #433
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    Re: Do You Have a Right to a Job?

    Quote Originally Posted by Federalist View Post
    Yes, I would consider it justified respond with violence to person in the process of committing assault.

    So in my question above, when I say "harmed", lets also include those people who are in the act of doing so.
    But the gunman hasn't harmed anyone nor is he necessarily "in the act" of harming someone. There's no way anyone can know what he's going to do for sure, so according to your theory there's no merit to physically acting against him.


    However, if you admit the gunman is a menace to society and that society has cause to physically limit his actions - what you call initiating interpersonal violence - then it's a pretty short step to everything else.
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 05-04-13 at 12:01 PM.
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  4. #434
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    Re: Do You Have a Right to a Job?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    But the gunman hasn't harmed anyone nor is he necessarily "in the act" of harming someone. There's no way anyone can know what he's going to do for sure, so according to your theory there's no merit to physically acting against him.
    No, I have already told you that once it is apparent that an attack is underway, my theory says that it is justified to respond.

    However, if you admit the gunman is a menace to society and that society has cause to physically limit his actions - what you call initiating interpersonal violence - then it's a pretty short step to everything else.
    I don't admit that the gunman is a menace to society. The gunman has initiated aggression against a victim.

  5. #435
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    Re: Do You Have a Right to a Job?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    But the gunman hasn't harmed anyone nor is he necessarily "in the act" of harming someone. There's no way anyone can know what he's going to do for sure, so according to your theory there's no merit to physically acting against him.


    However, if you admit the gunman is a menace to society and that society has cause to physically limit his actions - what you call initiating interpersonal violence - then it's a pretty short step to everything else.
    If you ban guns, society won't be able to do anything on the spot, physically stopping him, also you can tell when there is a guy like that if he pulls out a gun without being provoked sure he can possibly have shot one or two people but you can end a shooting spree right there.

  6. #436
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    Re: Do You Have a Right to a Job?

    Quote Originally Posted by babilfish View Post
    You seem to be hung up on the idea that because I can refuse employment, or there can be stipulations to becoming employed, it cannot be a right.
    I'm not hung up on it, I just keep having to repeat myself because no one advocating for this seems can figure it out.

    If under this "right to a job" idea, employment still takes the form of a literal employment contract, with all the elements thereof, then it is that contract which specifies who has a right to what and tied to what responsibilities or under what conditions.

    Having an absolute and positive right to something means zero conditions on your side of the contract.

    This is a bit like assuming that free speech can't be a right unless it exist in some absolute form, free of any sort of interference or moderation.
    No it's not, because free speech is a negative right.

    You've yet to really actually prove this point.
    I think you've just yet to grasp it.

    No, what I'm doing is explaining to you that what does or doesn't make something a right is people agreeing this is or isn't, and then showing how employment can be a right because of this.
    Well it is possible that people can agree on delusional things that don't make the least bit of sense.

    What you're doing is desperately trying to hold that, for some strange reason, the fact that a right is not absolute (that is to say, that it comes with terms and conditions) no longer makes it a right.

    Bizarre logic on your part, to be sure.
    It's not bizarre logic at all. Employment is a two-man dance, and you can't guarantee one of those men a deal that both have to strike in voluntary mutual agreement.

    We have a right to negotiate contracts with one another. We don't have a right to any other person accepting whatever we're offering.
    Last edited by Neomalthusian; 05-04-13 at 03:06 PM.

  7. #437
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    Re: Do You Have a Right to a Job?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jowar View Post
    How about looking for a job because if he gets a job he can't get fired from and has to be paid a certain amount of money he won't try to work at the job. If he gets a welfare check he is being paid for doing nothing and the other hard working people in either of those situations will think "hey joes not working and is getting paid around as much as we break our backs for!" Then, jobless or not slowly people will start doing what joe is doing, and when the majority of the country isn't working, the economy dies. If you don't think this can ever happen, look at Russia.

    Okay, folks are misunderstanding what I meant all over the place.

    I personally, me, am not talking about a guaranteed job you can't be fired from no matter how much you suck, where you get paid X regardless of productivity. That would, of course, be a disaster.

    But if you look at our current situation (and don't be fooled by the official unemployment figures, they're not just skewed they're BS), there are a LOT of people who would be GLAD to have a decent full time job and would be GLAD to work hard at it, who are either unemployed or very very under-employed (part-time at min wage) because the economy sucketh and the job market sucketh even worse.

    47% of Americans are so damn poor they can't pay Fed income tax.

    That means something is wrong here in the richest nation on Earth.

    Now me, I'd prefer to see some serious moves to jump-start the economy, encourage growth, and give employers strong reasons to create new hires and promotions though market activity, rather than some kind of government mandate imposing a job-rights package as a solution.

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  8. #438
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    Re: Do You Have a Right to a Job?

    Quote Originally Posted by Federalist View Post
    No, I have already told you that once it is apparent that an attack is underway, my theory says that it is justified to respond.

    I don't admit that the gunman is a menace to society. The gunman has initiated aggression against a victim.
    Then take your pick of any of thousands of scenarios where a person is a menace to society, or do you believe that to be impossible?
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    Re: Do You Have a Right to a Job?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    Then take your pick of any of thousands of scenarios where a person is a menace to society, or do you believe that to be impossible?
    And in what scenarios would you consider it justifiable for some people in a community who have arrived at a consensus to initiate violence against a person who has harmed no person or no person's property?

  10. #440
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    Re: Do You Have a Right to a Job?

    Quote Originally Posted by Federalist View Post
    And in what scenarios would you consider it justifiable for some people in a community who have arrived at a consensus to initiate violence against a person who has harmed no person or no person's property?
    How about someone walking around with a bomb strapped to their body? How about personal possession of a nuclear warhead, nerve gas, or biological agent? (Note that many biological agents aren't even visible.) I can name off dozens if your imagination is running short. We have developed many very dangerous and very destructive mechanisms & devices - take your pick.
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 05-05-13 at 01:41 AM.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

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