View Poll Results: Do You Have a Right to a Job?

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  • Yes

    22 14.67%
  • No

    125 83.33%
  • I don't know.

    3 2.00%
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Thread: Do You Have a Right to a Job?

  1. #421
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    Re: Do You Have a Right to a Job?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    Oh, I understand the theory well enough but that's all it will ever be. While you're reading up in rating agencies you should also check out a couple of easy books on game theory and sociology/psychology. It's very interesting reading.
    So you're saying that you consider it justifiable to initiate violence against a person who has harmed no person or no person's property?

  2. #422
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    Re: Do You Have a Right to a Job?

    Quote Originally Posted by Federalist View Post
    So you're saying that you consider it justifiable to initiate violence against a person who has harmed no person or no person's property?
    I consider your implicit assumptions to be invalid.
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  3. #423
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    Re: Do You Have a Right to a Job?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    I consider your implicit assumptions to be invalid.
    Invalid? How so?

  4. #424
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    Re: Do You Have a Right to a Job?

    Quote Originally Posted by Federalist View Post
    Invalid? How so?
    We just went through all this with taxation - yesterday? Two days ago? Whenever.

    PS
    #312
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

  5. #425
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    Re: Do You Have a Right to a Job?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    We just went through all this with taxation - yesterday? Two days ago? Whenever.

    PS
    #312
    That doesn't identify the assumptions you claim I am implicitly making or in what way they are invalid.

    I asked you whether you consider it justifiable to initiate violence against a person who has harmed no person or no person's property, and you respond that you consider my implicit assumptions invalid.

    So what are the implicit assumptions, and in what way are they invalid?

  6. #426
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    RE: Do You Have a Right to a Job?

    Whoa, whoa, whoa....

    You mean to tell me that people can exist apart from corporations? How dare you!

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    How did our ancestors ever survive before others employed them and paid them money?
    Sent from my Nokia Lumia 920 using Board Express

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    RE: Do You Have a Right to a Job?

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    This really is correct, because it accounts for human psychology, which is something modern macroeconomic monetary theorists neglect like crazy. They are so stratospherically separated from actual human experience that they are cannot possibly fathom the demotivating effect of being entitled to a livelihood.
    Impressive! I nominate this for post of the month.
    Sent from my Nokia Lumia 920 using Board Express

  8. #428
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    Re: Do You Have a Right to a Job?

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    Employment is a specific, literal contract.
    ...A contract that can have many terms, conditions, and requirements, or a part of a larger, still more complex contract.

    Not a "price you pay for living in a free society social contract" BS.
    There is no price for living in a free society, by taking part in it and taking advantage of the fruits provided by it, you are signing a contract to adhere to that society's laws.

    An example of people discovering they can vote themselves money from the treasury, basically.
    The horrors of democracy, to be sure. [/sarcasm]

    Either it takes the form of any other contract which includes negotiation of terms, offer and acceptance/denial, or it takes the form of welfare.
    You seem to be hung up on the idea that because I can refuse employment, or there can be stipulations to becoming employed, it cannot be a right.

    This is a bit like assuming that free speech can't be a right unless it exist in some absolute form, free of any sort of interference or moderation.

    This is false.

    Employment cannot take the form of a right to passively receive it from the external.
    You've yet to really actually prove this point.

    Yes, I can see that you are having immense difficulty computing the ways in which employment is inherently different than a positive right. In general, the only people with positive rights in this country are children. Not even welfare programs make what they hand out an actual positive right.
    How silly of me. I didn't think to consider welfare.

    ...Or not.

    Whether you have a right to a job or not doesn't hinge on what is considered a right at this very moment in society, shown by what people now consider to be a right and what they merely consider to be a form of government charity.

    They can "mandate" whatever they want...
    And they can even codify such a mandate as a right, which the government must provide if requested.

    Glad you agree.

    Positive rights are just a philosophical construct, same way natural rights are a philosophical construct.
    ...Legal construct, actually.

    They don't exist in any literal sense...
    Er, yes they do. They exist in the way people behave towards one another and how a government behaves towards and approaches it's citizenry.

    So what we're doing right now is presenting our own philosophies and insinuating the other's is stupid.
    No, what I'm doing is explaining to you that what does or doesn't make something a right is people agreeing this is or isn't, and then showing how employment can be a right because of this.

    What you're doing is desperately trying to hold that, for some strange reason, the fact that a right is not absolute (that is to say, that it comes with terms and conditions) no longer makes it a right.

    Bizarre logic on your part, to be sure.

  9. #429
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    Re: Do You Have a Right to a Job?

    Quote Originally Posted by Federalist View Post
    That doesn't identify the assumptions you claim I am implicitly making or in what way they are invalid.

    I asked you whether you consider it justifiable to initiate violence against a person who has harmed no person or no person's property, and you respond that you consider my implicit assumptions invalid.

    So what are the implicit assumptions, and in what way are they invalid?
    What you call it interpersonal violence, I call a community understanding and consensus. (almost exactly as shown in #312) I can't make it any more plain than that.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

  10. #430
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    Re: Do You Have a Right to a Job?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    What you call it interpersonal violence, I call a community understanding and consensus. (almost exactly as shown in #312) I can't make it any more plain than that.
    And do you consider it justifiable for some people in a community who have arrived at a consensus to initiate violence against a person who has harmed no person or no person's property?

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