View Poll Results: Do You Have a Right to a Job?

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  • Yes

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Thread: Do You Have a Right to a Job?

  1. #391
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    Re: Do You Have a Right to a Job?

    Quote Originally Posted by shrubnose View Post
    Keep dreaming.
    I will. You keep running to Nanny State wih your problems.

  2. #392
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    Re: Do You Have a Right to a Job?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    I will. You keep running to Nanny State wih your problems.


    You can bet that I will leave it to the U.S. government to fight our wars.

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    Re: Do You Have a Right to a Job?

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    You can banter about these details all you want. Employment is still a contract, not a positive right.
    ...On what basis is any right recognized if not, in some sense, contractually?

    The only thing that does or does not make something a right is our recognition between one another (or a ruling bodies recognition) of that thing to be a right.

    Whether it's a right or not is agreed upon by the people, and if enough clamor that they have a right to housing, healthcare, free enterprise, free speech, or whatnot then that thing may become or be a right.

    Employment can become a right provided enough people demand it be a right, something the government is obligated to ensure people posses in some capacity.

    Even in the dystopian fantasy where the federal government employs all the jobless, there still must be terms associated with that employment, and the employee's decision to abide by those terms or not (and refuse the job).
    With the following consequences that come from refusing a job, yes. Just as a person who refuses guaranteed healthcare will suffer on their part.

    Not sure what that has to do with any of this, but whatever.

    Though I gotta admit, I love how you term a society where the jobless can find some sort of relief from their situation a dystopia.

    In no way can an employment arrangement be considered a positive right. Thus no one has a right to a job.
    I'm not sure you put forth any sort of real logic to support that conclusion.

    What you have above is "Well, seeing as employee - employer relationship is a contractual one, then government can't possibly have a mandate to provide for individuals unable to find work, cause if the employee was working for the government- terms and stuff."

    What you have above doesn't fit together.

  4. #394
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    Re: Do You Have a Right to a Job?

    Quote Originally Posted by babilfish View Post
    ...On what basis is any right recognized if not, in some sense, contractually?
    Employment is a specific, literal contract. Not a "price you pay for living in a free society social contract" BS.

    The only thing that does or does not make something a right is our recognition between one another (or a ruling bodies recognition) of that thing to be a right.

    Whether it's a right or not is agreed upon by the people, and if enough clamor that they have a right to housing, healthcare, free enterprise, free speech, or whatnot then that thing may become or be a right.
    An example of people discovering they can vote themselves money from the treasury, basically.

    Employment can become a right provided enough people demand it be a right, something the government is obligated to ensure people posses in some capacity.
    Either it takes the form of any other contract which includes negotiation of terms, offer and acceptance/denial, or it takes the form of welfare. Employment cannot take the form of a right to passively receive it from the external.

    Not sure what that has to do with any of this, but whatever.
    Yes, I can see that you are having immense difficulty computing the ways in which employment is inherently different than a positive right. In general, the only people with positive rights in this country are children. Not even welfare programs make what they hand out an actual positive right.

    What you have above is "Well, seeing as employee - employer relationship is a contractual one, then government can't possibly have a mandate to provide for individuals unable to find work, cause if the employee was working for the government- terms and stuff."
    They can "mandate" whatever they want, in this case, to mandate the government to administer a program that "hires" all the nation's jobless, but it would be a toothless and futile mandate, and utter folly.

    Positive rights are just a philosophical construct, same way natural rights are a philosophical construct. They don't exist in any literal sense, regardless of how many people clamor. So what we're doing right now is presenting our own philosophies and insinuating the other's is stupid.
    Last edited by Neomalthusian; 05-03-13 at 01:39 PM.

  5. #395
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    Re: Do You Have a Right to a Job?

    Quote Originally Posted by Federalist View Post
    Anyone can eliminate the potential for getting lice by only going to barbers that have been certified to be hygienic and free of lice.
    Hey, I've got some great mortgage packages to sell you! S&P rated them A1 so you must know they're good.
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  6. #396
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    Re: Do You Have a Right to a Job?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    You want to bring back Locke's commons, where people can make their own living off the land with nothing but their body and wit? I'm good with that. Who's land shall we use?

    Many of our ancestors didn't survive.
    We're here, aren't we? Doesn't make a lot of sense to differentiate then and now in this way.

    Is that your answer, let them die in the street?
    Humans can survive without social rights. This is self-evident as well as historically supported.

    The only reason I can come up with that explains why so many people are clinging so desperately to the federal safety net is that they unconsciously recognize that we're so populated now that we've outgrown the carrying capacity of the ecosystems in which we live and thus rely utterly on the central government to maintain political stability.

    Perhaps it's not in fact that people as individuals need their federal government to survive, or that they trust their federal government, it's that they couldn't trust their tens of millions of neighbors in its absence.
    Last edited by Neomalthusian; 05-03-13 at 01:52 PM.

  7. #397
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    Re: Do You Have a Right to a Job?

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    We're here, aren't we? Doesn't make a lot of sense to differentiate then and now in this way.
    You wanted an answer, I gave it to you. "Then" had someplace to go that was at least somewhat fertile and was unowned. "Now" there is no such place.


    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    Humans can survive without social rights. This is self-evident as well as historically supported.

    The only reason I can come up with that explains why so many people are clinging so desperately to the federal safety net is that they unconsciously recognize that we're so populated now that we've outgrown the carrying capacity of the ecosystems in which we live and thus rely utterly on the central government to maintain political stability.

    Perhaps it's not in fact that people as individuals need their federal government to survive, or that they trust their federal government, it's that they couldn't trust their tens of millions of neighbors in its absence.
    Depending on what you mean by "social rights"; Humans can survive without but not nearly as many as with. This is also historically supported, though less self-evident.


    People have never trusted strangers because for too long a time strangers were "the enemy". Now that we live in such large numbers, there are untold hundreds of strangers we pass everyday and many of them literally hold our life in their hands (i.e., the other driver we expect to keep within the lines). Without law we cannot exist in such numbers and still maintain the low percentage of deaths from violence we enjoy now compared to then.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
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    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
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  8. #398
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    Re: Do You Have a Right to a Job?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    You wanted an answer, I gave it to you. "Then" had someplace to go that was at least somewhat fertile and was unowned. "Now" there is no such place.

    Depending on what you mean by "social rights"; Humans can survive without but not nearly as many as with. This is also historically supported, though less self-evident.
    Maybe the goal should not be to multiply our population as much as possible. Support for this follows (provided by you):

    People have never trusted strangers because for too long a time strangers were "the enemy". Now that we live in such large numbers, there are untold hundreds of strangers we pass everyday and many of them literally hold our life in their hands (i.e., the other driver we expect to keep within the lines). Without law we cannot exist in such numbers and still maintain the low percentage of deaths from violence we enjoy now compared to then.
    I'm not advocating anarchism, but otherwise I do agree with what you say here. There are too many of us everywhere to be able to have the trusting, tight-knit, communalized little societies that I think are most in line with our natures. Our population and complexity, therefore, is very much out of alignment with our natures, and our attempts to create centralized social structures that act as our providers (e.g. of jobs, housing, food, etc.) is compensatory, but in some respects even farther out of alignment with our natures.

    We're looking for the least-worst answer here. I think the centralized social planning is at best a bandaid for this predicament, or at worst, directly perpetuating the predicament.

  9. #399
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    Re: Do You Have a Right to a Job?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    Hey, I've got some great mortgage packages to sell you! S&P rated them A1 so you must know they're good.
    Good point. S&P would never survive in a free society.

  10. #400
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    Re: Do You Have a Right to a Job?

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    Maybe the goal should not be to multiply our population as much as possible. Support for this follows (provided by you):
    I've never said increasing our population was a good thing but there's almost no way to stop it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    I'm not advocating anarchism, but otherwise I do agree with what you say here. There are too many of us everywhere to be able to have the trusting, tight-knit, communalized little societies that I think are most in line with our natures. Our population and complexity, therefore, is very much out of alignment with our natures, and our attempts to create centralized social structures that act as our providers (e.g. of jobs, housing, food, etc.) is compensatory, but in some respects even farther out of alignment with our natures.
    Personally, I think suburbia and increased job mobility killed the community feeling in America. Hard to care about the effects of a local policy 5-10 years up the line when you've just moved into an area or are thinking about taking that job 1000 miles away. Centralized government is the only cohesion we have.


    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    We're looking for the least-worst answer here. I think the centralized social planning is at best a bandaid for this predicament, or at worst, directly perpetuating the predicament.
    I think it tends to make us think more about other people in our society that live in different situations then we do. And, honestly, I think there's very little "planning" about it. The major ebb and flow of public opinion is what guides (not dictates) law and, in some ways, it always has.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

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