View Poll Results: Do You Have a Right to a Job?

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Thread: Do You Have a Right to a Job?

  1. #181
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    Re: Do You Have a Right to a Job?

    Absolutely not....I am a full free market man...I do not believe anyone has a right to any job at all.
    Libertarian and Atheist...wow I'm a hated man.

  2. #182
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    Re: Do You Have a Right to a Job?

    Quote Originally Posted by X Factor View Post
    Hmmmm, I'm a bit of a constitutional purist and I don't believe anyone has a right right to a job, but I'm not sure how trying to guarantee one as a right would violate the Constitution.
    What kind of draconian, rights-killing laws would have to be passed to make this happen? That's where it gets unconstitutional.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
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    Re: Do You Have a Right to a Job?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post

    the enumerated duties of congress


    article 1 Section. 8.

    The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

    To borrow Money on the credit of the United States;

    To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

    To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

    To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

    To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

    To establish Post Offices and post Roads;

    To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

    To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;

    To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offences against the Law of Nations;

    To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

    To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

    To provide and maintain a Navy;

    To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

    To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

    To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

    To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the Acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings;--And

    To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.


    13th amendment

    Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.



    Are there any duties of congress that are social duties, that are involved in the personal life's of the people.......no.

    “The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined . . . to be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce.” – James Madison, Federalist 45

    “Congress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but only those specifically enumerated.” – Thomas Jefferson, 1798

    congress has no authority to take money from one citizen and give it to another citizen.

    government was created to serve the interest of the people equally, it is not here to favor one class over another class.
    Unfortunately the words of the Constitution itself do not specifically limit the clause "general welfare." And we should care only about what the document says, not what Jefferson says it should say, or even what the actual drafters say is should say.

    Now how does guaranteeing someone a job violate the 13th amendment.


    And btw, I agree with you insofar as we should not be guaranteeing people jobs. I simply disagree that the Constitution prohibits it.
    Don't be a grammar nazi - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations, Book 1 #7

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    Re: Do You Have a Right to a Job?

    Only under communism...

    oh wait, there you are also forced to have a job.

  5. #185
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    Re: Do You Have a Right to a Job?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius46 View Post
    Unfortunately the words of the Constitution itself do not specifically limit the clause "general welfare." And we should care only about what the document says, not what Jefferson says it should say, or even what the actual drafters say is should say.
    OK, let’s see what they had to say and put this question to rest. Let’s ask James Madison, the Father of the Constitution, Thomas Jefferson and Alexander Hamilton. Could they possibly shed any light on this?

    “With respect to the two words ‘general welfare,’ I have always regarded them as qualified by the detail of powers connected with them. To take them in a literal and unlimited sense would be a metamorphosis of the Constitution into a character which there is a host of proofs was not contemplated by its creators.” – James Madison in letter to James Robertson

    “[Congressional jurisdiction of power] is limited to certain enumerated objects, which concern all the members of the republic, but which are not to be attained by the separate provisions of any.” – James Madison, Federalist 14

    “The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined . . . to be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce.” – James Madison, Federalist 45

    “If Congress can do whatever in their discretion can be done by money, and will promote the General Welfare, the Government is no longer a limited one, possessing enumerated powers, but an indefinite one, subject to particular exceptions.” – James Madison, 1792

    “The Constitution allows only the means which are ‘necessary,’ not those which are merely ‘convenient,’ for effecting the enumerated powers. If such a latitude of construction be allowed to this phrase as to give any non-enumerated power, it will go to every one, for there is not one which ingenuity may not torture into a convenience in some instance or other, to some one of so long a list of enumerated powers. It would swallow up all the delegated powers, and reduce the whole to one power, as before observed” – Thomas Jefferson, 1791

    “Congress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but only those specifically enumerated.” – Thomas Jefferson, 1798

    There you have it. James Madison, the Constitution’s author and Thomas Jefferson the author of the Declaration of Independence, specifically say that Congressional powers are to be limited and defined – unlike most modern interpretations!

    Admittedly, Jefferson and Madison were not our only Founders. These two were strict constitutionalists who feared the potential strength of any government. So let’s look at another Founder’s opinion—Alexander Hamilton who historically saw it in a somewhat looser vain.

    “This specification of particulars [the 18 enumerated powers of Article I, Section 8] evidently excludes all pretension to a general legislative authority, because an affirmative grant of special powers would be absurd as well as useless if a general authority was intended.” – Alexander Hamilton, Federalist 83

    Hamilton uncategorically states that all congressional powers are enumerated and that the very existence of these enumerations alone makes any belief that Congress has full and general legislative power to act as it desires nonsensical. If such broad congressional power had been the original intent, the constitutionally specified powers would have been worthless. In other words, why even enumerate any powers at all if the General Welfare clause could trump them?

    “No legislative act … contrary to the Constitution can be valid. To deny this would be to affirm that the deputy is greater than his principal; that the servant is above his master; that the representatives of the people are superior to the people themselves; that men acting by virtue of powers may do not only what their powers do not authorize, but what they forbid.” – Alexander Hamilton, Federalist 78

    In short, Hamilton tells us that since the powers of Congress are enumerated and limit Congress to those powers, any assumed authority outside those specified that don’t have a direct relation to those explicit powers must be contrary to the Constitution and therefore — unconstitutional.

    From the proverbial horses mouths to your own eyes — the all-encompassing General Welfare Clause is not as all encompassing as our current “leaders” would have us believe. In no way does that one phrase grant unlimited power to the Federal government rather it pertains only to those enumerated powers that can and ought to be applied universally and in general to the several states.



    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius46 View Post
    Now how does guaranteeing someone a job violate the 13th amendment.

    this comes into play if the government used force to make business create jobs for people, or force business to hire people.

    government has no authority to force you to do things, if you have not violated the law.




    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius46 View Post
    And btw, I agree with you insofar as we should not be guaranteeing people jobs. I simply disagree that the Constitution prohibits it.
    the constitution is written to limit governments only, they are not written for business or people.

    limiting government is why we have a constitution to to prevent their over reach of power, ....their powers are few and defined.

    as state by the founders:"With respect to the two words ‘general welfare,’ I have always regarded them as qualified by the detail of powers connected with them. To take them in a literal and unlimited sense would be a metamorphosis of the Constitution into a character which there is a host of proofs was not contemplated by its creators.” – James Madison in letter to James Robertson.

    “If Congress can do whatever in their discretion can be done by money, and will promote the General Welfare, the Government is no longer a limited one, possessing enumerated powers, but an indefinite one, subject to particular exceptions.” – James Madison, 1792

    Congress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but only those specifically enumerated.” – Thomas Jefferson, 1798
    Last edited by Master PO; 04-25-13 at 05:46 PM.

  6. #186
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    Re: Do You Have a Right to a Job?

    as i've stated in other threads, i do feel that we are entering into an era in which technology will do more and more of the work. i think of this as a post-labor economy, and i'm genuinely curious about how the resource distribution model will have to be modified as actual labor is needed less and less. perhaps at this time, the responsibility of the citizen will become achieving his or her intellectual potential and contributing in that way to the goal of societal stability and sustainability.

    right now, a job is a necessity for most. is it a right? that's a bit more nuanced. i would say that the first world has pretty much decided that people have a right not to starve to death and a right to not die of treatable diseases due to lack of funds. could we make the system infinitely more efficient, though? yes.

    at some point, we as a society need to look at our labor pool as a resource. what needs done, and who is available to do it? once that question is answered, we train people to do the jobs that need to be done. and yes, we do it publicly, because the public is the primary beneficiary. i think that this would be a vast improvement over the current system.

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    Re: Do You Have a Right to a Job?

    Quote Originally Posted by soot View Post
    I agree completely.

    Part of the "job" of being self employed is atttracting and keeping customers.

    Everyone certainly has the right to at least that much.

    If I have the right to gain skills, the right to hang out a shingle and go to work for myself, and the right to attract customers and provide them with whatever service my skills qualify me to provide, then by logical necessity I have the right to a job.

    Again, I'm not arguing that anyone else has an obligation to provide me with a job, and neither do prospective customers have an obligation to employ me.

    I don't have a right to be successful at my job.

    But I have a right to one.
    The problem I have with this stance on a right to a job is people have already taken it to imply that some should be forced to employ others even if they're ****ty employees. There seems to be debate as to whether it should be the private or public sector forced to employ these people but, either way, I think we all lose when this happens.

  8. #188
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    Re: Do You Have a Right to a Job?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    i would make the point, government cannot create a guarantee to a job., because they have no auditory to do such.

    but what government can do is make the economy more robust, and institute polities, which spur economic activity, to cause job creation.

    "the ends, justify the means" .......does not work when violating the constitution.
    I'm using the job guarantee loosely. I know some have stated a steadfast hard gaurantee that no-one ever should want for a job but like the Fed Reserve tries to maintain some sort of inflation target the government should have some sort of employment rate target.

    This country is getting ridiculous...you'd think from the bills passsed, the debates that happen that everything was hunky dory. There's a very wide disconnect between the people in Washington and everyone els.e
    “Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.” John Maynard Keynes

  9. #189
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    Re: Do You Have a Right to a Job?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dapper Andy View Post
    The problem I have with this stance on a right to a job is people have already taken it to imply that some should be forced to employ others even if they're ****ty employees.
    If that's the way its being taken then I have a problem with it too.

    That's why I've tried to be clear all along that that is not how I take it for the purpose of this discussion.

    There seems to be debate as to whether it should be the private or public sector forced to employ these people but, either way, I think we all lose when this happens.
    I think that when it comes to people who aren't employable (either by themselves or by others) we lose no matter what we do.

    We either have to:

    a.) Give them jobs

    b.) Maintain them on welfare

    c.) Fight them like an invading ****ing army because if they have no means to provide for themslves and we don't provide for them they're going to turn to crime on a massive scale in the simple interest of self-preservation

    And we're talking about millions of people here.

    I think that giving them jobs is the lesser of all possible evils.

    At least we (society) get something back on our investment in them, even if it's only the simple satisfaction of not giving them something for nothing while we have to work for everything we have (or most of us do anyhow, some are just born rich but I don't think there's any crime in that and I would certainly take the job if I could get it).

  10. #190
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    Re: Do You Have a Right to a Job?

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    A pretty large portion of those unemploymed can't-get-a-job folks were previously working in the construction business and had jobs until the jobs dissapeared.

    "Least employable" people is relative. It also includes a lot of folks that were in the construction industry.
    You may have a point here. Could you cite the numbers?

    One of the biggest things needed to modernize our medical records? simple data entry.
    Maybe that's worth doing, but the fact that it's worth doing is what has to drive the decision. This does not translate to people generally having a right to being provided with a job to do.

    So you think it's better for people to learn skills like food preservation? That may add to self sufficiciency in the sense of living on the prarie 100 years ago but it's grossly inefficient.
    It's self-sufficiency in the sense that it's self-sufficiency. Almost any time I bring up healthy, fulfilling endeavors related to self-sufficiency, Big Government advocates badmouth it and mock it. For people who claim to care so much about the poorer folks in our society, this makes no sense. Food independence is an integral component to having a sense of empowerment despite limited means. No one needs this more than our middle and lower classes.

    Having a job that was created by government for the sake of your welfare is hardly different from any other type of welfare because it keeps those people inherently dependent on the external to produce something for them, rather than reliance on the self to produce something for the self. So I would expect the same type of self-victimizing, whining, helplessness and resentment under a workfare system that we see under the welfare system. It's futile to think we can legislate prosperity among the meager classes. We need to foster independence despite limited means, not foster greater dependence continuously. You don't have to be wealthy to be fulfilled, productive and healthy. But you do have to feel like you can provide for yourself, know how to, and work hard toward it. Workfare is not an act of providing for oneself. It's still being a dependent passive recipient. And for that, I do not like it.

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