View Poll Results: Do You Have a Right to a Job?

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  • Yes

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Thread: Do You Have a Right to a Job?

  1. #171
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    Re: Do You Have a Right to a Job?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    then who are you going to apply force to, to make the other person supply that job?

    in other words your going to violate the 13th amendment.
    The job gaurantee is about society promising a job for people that can't find work. That job benefits society so it would be public in nature. TVA and other New Deal style work programs. Put people to work doing things that provide long term benefits for society during times of mass unemployment.

    Honestly I'm not sure about a 100% employment program. If anything it should be a gauranteed work program when you pass some unemployment threshold.
    “Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.” John Maynard Keynes

  2. #172
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    Re: Do You Have a Right to a Job?

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    The job gaurantee is about society promising a job for people that can't find work. That job benefits society...
    If you mean "benefits society" in a net sense, then already you make a strange assumption, which is that the value of a job always exceeds its cost.

    TVA and other New Deal style work programs. Put people to work doing things that provide long term benefits for society during times of mass unemployment.
    And that assumes that 1) there exists work that provides long-term benefits to society that isn't already being done, and 2) that the people who are worst at finding work will be able to do those types of things.


    This idea is just a variation of welfare. That doesn't mean it's necessarily a worse idea than plain old cradle-to-grave welfare. It's just that it's inherently not that much better of an idea.

  3. #173
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    Re: Do You Have a Right to a Job?

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    If you mean "benefits society" in a net sense, then already you make a strange assumption, which is that the value of a job always exceeds its cost.
    .
    I'm talking specifically about the US where we have a lot of things that need to get done. Sure maybe in some rare case of a country that has completely maxed out whatever infrastructure improvement they could make you hit a point where there's not net benefit but in our country that isn't the case.

    And that assumes that 1) there exists work that provides long-term benefits to society that isn't already being done, and 2) that the people who are worst at finding work will be able to do those types of things.
    Former farmers were building dams. It's not like the only problems this country calls for high tech solutions that require a highly skilled workforce.

    This idea is just a variation of welfare. That doesn't mean it's necessarily a worse idea than plain old cradle-to-grave welfare. It's just that it's inherently not that much better of an idea.
    Ehh...I agree with you too a point. Sure it's a form of safety net like welfare but I believe it's a much better idea.

    First of all working itself has postivie effects on individuals. Outlook, confidence etc. Being productive makes individuals feel better about themselves. people learn skills and refine abilities. Even if you never use those skills specifically for what you do now certain principles carry over. Then of course there's the actual work. A more efficient method of medical record keeping or laying wire to improve bandwidth or even working on a road crew provides long term benefits.
    “Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.” John Maynard Keynes

  4. #174
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    Re: Do You Have a Right to a Job?

    Quote Originally Posted by X Factor View Post
    Surfing the net, I came across this.



    The Right to a job | Socialist Equality Party

    Interesting point of view. What do you think? Is having a job a right?

    Adding the poll right now. Answers will be yes, no and I don't know.
    No. See my political affiliation.

  5. #175
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    Re: Do You Have a Right to a Job?

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    I'm talking specifically about the US where we have a lot of things that need to get done. Sure maybe in some rare case of a country that has completely maxed out whatever infrastructure improvement they could make you hit a point where there's not net benefit but in our country that isn't the case.
    What makes you think our infrastructure improvement projects are going to be adequately done by the hodge podge bunch of unemployed-and-can't-get-a-job bunch of folks?

    Former farmers were building dams. It's not like the only problems this country calls for high tech solutions that require a highly skilled workforce.
    What kinds of government projects do you see out there that could be satisfactorily staffed by the millions of unemployed folks scattered all across the country? You seem to be sort of shooting blind here. In reality, big infrastructure projects nowadays require expertise. Even something as seemingly simple as digging a hole and dropping a residential septic tank into it requires a team of engineers to design the system, permitting from the state's environmental conservation department, etc. etc. If you think our infrastructure needs can employ millions of our least-employable people, then you must be advocating for projects that embrace a technological regression in terms of how we get things done. To make sweeping infrastructure improvements that will benefit us long-term, you think we can just give millions of people some hand tools and it'll all get done? Hell, in that case let's build some pyramids.

    First of all working itself has postivie effects on individuals. Outlook, confidence etc. Being productive makes individuals feel better about themselves. people learn skills and refine abilities. Even if you never use those skills specifically for what you do now certain principles carry over. Then of course there's the actual work. A more efficient method of medical record keeping or laying wire to improve bandwidth or even working on a road crew provides long term benefits.
    Let me be clear, I would of course rather people be productive than idle. I do wish for that. But even more specifically, I wish for self-sufficiency. People who work hard to produce value (for themselves even) such as by growing more of their own food, re-learning homesteading and food storage and preservation and other crucial life skills, rather than having and expecting things be provided to them by the external. Having "a right to a job" is inherently a dependent set-up. You depend on the government to provide you with something to do, or to force someone else to provide something for you to do. Your sense of choice and self-reliance and pursuit of happiness is constrained by that sort of notion. Real productivity and lifestyle independence requires strategy and voluntary trade, not coercion and administrative management.

    "Right to a job" notions are an ideological misfire. They are not about pursuit of happiness. They are about receipt of happiness.

  6. #176
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    Re: Do You Have a Right to a Job?

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    What makes you think our infrastructure improvement projects are going to be adequately done by the hodge podge bunch of unemployed-and-can't-get-a-job bunch of folks?
    .
    A pretty large portion of those unemploymed can't-get-a-job folks were previously working in the construction business and had jobs until the jobs dissapeared.

    What kinds of government projects do you see out there that could be satisfactorily staffed by the millions of unemployed folks scattered all across the country? You seem to be sort of shooting blind here. In reality, big infrastructure projects nowadays require expertise. Even something as seemingly simple as digging a hole and dropping a residential septic tank into it requires a team of engineers to design the system, permitting from the state's environmental conservation department, etc. etc. If you think our infrastructure needs can employ millions of our least-employable people, then you must be advocating for projects that embrace a technological regression in terms of how we get things done. To make sweeping infrastructure improvements that will benefit us long-term, you think we can just give millions of people some hand tools and it'll all get done? Hell, in that case let's build some pyramids.
    "Least employable" people is relative. It also includes a lot of folks that were in the construction industry.

    One of the biggest things needed to modernize our medical records? simple data entry.

    Let me be clear, I would of course rather people be productive than idle. I do wish for that. But even more specifically, I wish for self-sufficiency. People who work hard to produce value (for themselves even) such as by growing more of their own food, re-learning homesteading and food storage and preservation and other crucial life skills, rather than having and expecting things be provided to them by the external. Having "a right to a job" is inherently a dependent set-up. You depend on the government to provide you with something to do, or to force someone else to provide something for you to do. Your sense of choice and self-reliance and pursuit of happiness is constrained by that sort of notion. Real productivity and lifestyle independence requires strategy and voluntary trade, not coercion and administrative management.

    "Right to a job" notions are an ideological misfire. They are not about pursuit of happiness. They are about receipt of happiness.
    So you think it's better for people to learn skills like food preservation? That may add to self sufficiciency in the sense of living on the prarie 100 years ago but it's grossly inefficient.
    “Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.” John Maynard Keynes

  7. #177
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    Re: Do You Have a Right to a Job?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius46 View Post
    I'm asking WHERE in the Constitution it says that?

    the enumerated duties of congress


    article 1 Section. 8.

    The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

    To borrow Money on the credit of the United States;

    To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

    To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

    To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

    To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

    To establish Post Offices and post Roads;

    To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

    To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;

    To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offences against the Law of Nations;

    To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

    To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

    To provide and maintain a Navy;

    To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

    To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

    To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

    To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the Acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings;--And

    To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.


    13th amendment

    Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.



    Are there any duties of congress that are social duties, that are involved in the personal life's of the people.......no.

    “The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined . . . to be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce.” – James Madison, Federalist 45

    “Congress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but only those specifically enumerated.” – Thomas Jefferson, 1798

    congress has no authority to take money from one citizen and give it to another citizen.

    government was created to serve the interest of the people equally, it is not here to favor one class over another class.

  8. #178
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    Re: Do You Have a Right to a Job?

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    The job gaurantee is about society promising a job for people that can't find work. That job benefits society so it would be public in nature. TVA and other New Deal style work programs. Put people to work doing things that provide long term benefits for society during times of mass unemployment.

    Honestly I'm not sure about a 100% employment program. If anything it should be a gauranteed work program when you pass some unemployment threshold.
    the federal government was not created to guarantee a job to people, it is not an enumerated duty of congress.

    some people may want to work ,however they do not have good work performance, meaning they dont show up to work on time, they cannot get along with other employees, they dont comply with company polices.

    their are no guarantee's in life.

  9. #179
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    Re: Do You Have a Right to a Job?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    the federal government was not created to guarantee a job to people, it is not an enumerated duty of congress.

    some people may want to work ,however they do not have good work performance, meaning they dont show up to work on time, they cannot get along with other employees, they dont comply with company polices.

    their are no guarantee's in life.
    So we have 10 million unemployed because in 2007 they decided to stop showing up to work in time?

    There are no gaurantees in life but sometimes what happens is more arbitrary and less based on something specific someone did.
    “Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.” John Maynard Keynes

  10. #180
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    Re: Do You Have a Right to a Job?

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    So we have 10 million unemployed because in 2007 they decided to stop showing up to work in time?

    There are no gaurantees in life but sometimes what happens is more arbitrary and less based on something specific someone did.
    i would make the point, government cannot create a guarantee to a job., because they have no auditory to do such.

    but what government can do is make the economy more robust, and institute polities, which spur economic activity, to cause job creation.

    "the ends, justify the means" .......does not work when violating the constitution.

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