• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

The divide between the rich and the rest

How serious a problem is the divide between the wealthy and the rest of us?

  • Not a problem at all.

    Votes: 32 29.4%

  • A problem, but not a serious one.

    Votes: 8 7.3%

  • A fairly serious problem.

    Votes: 34 31.2%

  • It's not just a "problem." It's a catastrophe that is only getting worse.

    Votes: 35 32.1%

  • This divide does not exist.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Total voters
    109
Phys251 said:
How serious a problem is the wealth gap between the wealthy and the rest of us?
Click to expand...

I would say it's not a serious problem at all.

Ultimately, it is a matter of why a wealth gap exists and how difficult it is to overcome that gap. In our current dynamic the gap has existed because you have some people who have invested a considerable amount of time, effort, and money into their future and others who have basically done nothing but stick their hand out looking for charity. Virtually nothing more than getting a better education is required to overcome the gap.

There are literally millions of students who will graduate in the next few weeks with associates, bachelors, masters, and doctoral degrees who will immediately jump into new tax brackets. Hitting "six figures" is almost guaranteed with a masters degree in something useful.

In short:

Work hard, graduate from a good college, then earn a MBA, JD, MD, etc. from a good program and you will do well.

Drop out of high school, pop out a few kids, and shoot heroin and you will do ****ty.
 
Ikari said:
Give me the stats! It's really not that hard. I'm sure there are some who are now millionaires (true wealth starts when one gains a net worth of billions in today's world), never said there aren't. But how many? What percentage? What are the statistics?
Click to expand...

Get out of your bubble, gain some drive and will discover some on your own and miight even become one of them:2wave:
 
Rocketman said:
10 million is not middle class at all, that statement above means I am done with you on this as you have no idea what you are talking about.
Click to expand...
Be done with me if you like, bu the one who has no idea what he is talking about is you. A ten million dollar nest egg for a retiree is NOT upper class.
 
Guy Incognito said:
Be done with me if you like, bu the one who has no idea what he is talking about is you. A ten million dollar nest egg for a retiree is NOT upper class.
Click to expand...

so where does it start? I consider that upper class-
 
THis says it all.....................


 
TurtleDude said:
so where does it start? I consider that upper class-
Click to expand...

And you would be wrong. The upper class is the topmost class. A guy in his seventies with ten million is upper-middle class. He is not in the same class as a billionaire.
 
Guy Incognito said:
And you would be wrong. The upper class is the topmost class. A guy in his seventies with ten million is upper-middle class. He is not in the same class as a billionaire.
Click to expand...

and a billionaire is not in the same class is as someone with 100 billion or a trillion

try again guy. ten million in assets puts you in the top one percent

you want to draw lines between the top .05% and the the top .01%
 
Rocketman said:
Get out of your bubble, gain some drive and will discover some on your own and miight even become one of them:2wave:
Click to expand...

So you can't actually back up anything you're saying with statistics which prove your point, is what you're saying. That's pretty much what I thought.
 
TurtleDude said:
and a billionaire is not in the same class is as someone with 100 billion or a trillion

try again guy. ten million in assets puts you in the top one percent

you want to draw lines between the top .05% and the the top .01%
Click to expand...

0.1% is where you start to see the true aggregation of wealth.
 
TurtleDude said:
and a billionaire is not in the same class is as someone with 100 billion or a trillion

try again guy. ten million in assets puts you in the top one percent

you want to draw lines between the top .05% and the the top .01%
Click to expand...
Drawing lines at one percent or half a pecent is entirely arbitrary. The man who worked his entire life in a service job like a doctor or lawyer to accumulate ten million is middle class. He has no real wealth, merely some savings.

You are right that a billionaire is not in the same class as a trillionaire. :lol: If trillionaires existed they would be in a different class-- in fact, they are, since the only trillionaires are nations.

The uppermost class of natural persons is the billionaire level. The people with a few million do not belong to this upper class, and they really have practically nothing in common with the real upper class (except that the upper-middle class likes to consume the same Veblen goods as the upper class, usually on credit).

The guy who works his whole life to sock away a few millions bucks has not achieved the critical mass to become upper class. It is not possible to get to that level as a salaryman. You need to be an entrenpreur to achieve true wealth, and even then the vast majority of entrepreneurs do not rise to this level.
 
Guy Incognito said:
Drawing lines at one percent or half a pecent is entirely arbitrary. The man who worked his entire life in a service job like a doctor or lawyer to accumulate ten million is middle class. He has no real wealth, merely some savings.

You are right that a billionaire is not in the same class as a trillionaire. :lol: If trillionaires existed they would be in a different class-- in fact, they are, since the only trillionaires are nations.

The uppermost class of natural persons is the billionaire level. The people with a few million do not belong to this upper class, and they really have practically nothing in common with the real upper class (except that the upper-middle class likes to consume the same Veblen goods as the upper class, usually on credit).

The guy who works his whole life to sock away a few millions bucks has not achieved the critical mass to become upper class. It is not possible to get to that level as a salaryman. You need to be an entrenpreur to achieve true wealth, and even then the vast majority of entrepreneurs do not rise to this level.
Click to expand...


I dont see any useful material in that post. your line drawing is no better than mine

I think if you can live at a level consistent with a high six figure earner without working then you are very rich or wealthy
 
So how many economic and social class levels do we need for an accurate picture of the American economic spread?

Apparently three no longer suffices. Would ten do? Fifty? One hundred?

At what point does the reality that you have 100 or 1,000 times as much as the average person does simply make you considered as RICH and we can all agree on that?
 
TurtleDude said:
I dont see any useful material in that post. your line drawing is no better than mine

I think if you can live at a level consistent with a high six figure earner without working then you are very rich or wealthy
Click to expand...

That is a straw man. You have to work very hard to be upper middle class. As a matter of fact, it's harder than being upper class.

A Six figure income isn't upper class. It's only "rich" in the that I makes you at the high end of middle class. A six rogue income makes you richer than most people.

But in meaningful terms, the upper middle class has far more in common with the rest of the middle class than with the elite upper class. This is not an arbitrary distinction, we are talking about two different species. The upper class rule the world. A billionaire can get the president on the phone. They have real power.

Compare that to somebody earning six figuresse who is slightly better off than somebody earning five figures, but I'm every appreciable way they are in the same class as compared to billionaires.
 
Ikari said:
So you can't actually back up anything you're saying with statistics which prove your point, is what you're saying. That's pretty much what I thought.
Click to expand...

Do you carry around financial statements of 5 or 10 of your closest friends?:lamo
 
Rocketman said:
Do you carry around financial statements of 5 or 10 of your closest friends?:lamo
Click to expand...

No, and that's not what I'm asking for either. Statistics. You know what those are, yes? Aggregated data on large scale trends and magnitudes. What I'm asking for is not your personal testimony. Maybe you know 10 people. There's like 314 MILLION people in America. 10/314000000 is essentially zero. 10 proves nothing. I'm looking for you to provide the actual data and statistics which prove your claims. Not little personal testimonials about a null factor.
 
Ikari said:
No, and that's not what I'm asking for either. Statistics. You know what those are, yes? Aggregated data on large scale trends and magnitudes. What I'm asking for is not your personal testimony. Maybe you know 10 people. There's like 314 MILLION people in America. 10/314000000 is essentially zero. 10 proves nothing. I'm looking for you to provide the actual data and statistics which prove your claims. Not little personal testimonials about a null factor.
Click to expand...

Of course you are, like most people from your side of the fence, you want someone to spoon feed you everything or whine when they ask you to do the work yourself.
 
Rocketman said:
then you aren't paying attention, many middle class citizens 10 years ago are multi-millionaires today
Click to expand...

more American myths.

the majority of americans BELIEVE this to be the case, however research quite clearly shows there is LESS intergenerational mobility in the US than in comparable nations:

The Brookings Institution said in 2013 that income inequality was increasing and becoming permanent, sharply reducing social mobility
Click to expand...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socio-economic_mobility_in_the_United_States

There are numerous primary sources that verify this:

http://www.brookings.edu/~/media/re... sawhill/02_economic_mobility_sawhill_ch3.pdf


http://elibrary.worldbank.org/docse...est&checksum=A48EEA64E58D3D448F101492CE426D5B

and the income gap just gets wider:

Data from a number of sources [1] indicate that income inequality has grown significantly since the early 1970s, [2][3][4][5][6] after several decades of stability.[7][8] While inequality has risen among most developed countries, and especially English-speaking ones, it is highest in the United States.[9][10][11]

Studies indicate the source of the widening gap (sometimes called the Great Divergence) has not been gender inequality, which has declined in the US over the last several decades,[12] nor inequality between black and white Americans, which has stagnated during that time,[13] nor has the gap between the poor and middle class been the major cause—though it has grown.[14] Most of the growth has been between the middle class and top earners, with the disparity becoming more extreme the further one goes up in the income distribution.[15] Upward redistribution of income is responsible for about 43% of the projected Social Security shortfall over the next 75 years.[16] The Brookings Institution said in 2013 that income inequality was increasing and becoming permanent, reducing social mobility in the US.[17]

A 2011 study by the CBO[18] found that the top earning 1 percent of households gained about 275% after federal taxes and income transfers over a period between 1979 and 2007, compared to a gain of just under 40% for the 60 percent in the middle of America's income distribution.[18] Other sources find that the trend has continued since then.[19] In spite of this data, only 42% of Americans think inequality has increased in the past ten years.[20] Income inequality is not uniform among the states; as measured by the Gini coefficient: after tax income inequality in 2009 was greatest in Texas and lowest in Maine.[21]
Click to expand...

Income inequality in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

its amazing how attached some of you are to your fairytales, despite overwhelming evidence that reality is quite a different story.
 
Rocketman said:
Of course you are, like most people from your side of the fence, you want someone to spoon feed you everything or whine when they ask you to do the work yourself.
Click to expand...

No, I was just asking you to prove your point, but you can't. It's ok. You were making baseless claims trying to claim an aggregate effect on a small number data set, didn't understand statistics or data analysis; but I won't hold that against ya. You can't prove your point though is the lesson in all of this. You have no numbers above zero, and nothing more than assertion and supposition. Thanks.
 
marywollstonecraft said:
more American myths.

the majority of americans BELIEVE this to be the case, however research quite clearly shows there is LESS intergenerational mobility in the US than in comparable nations:



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socio-economic_mobility_in_the_United_States

There are numerous primary sources that verify this:

http://www.brookings.edu/~/media/re... sawhill/02_economic_mobility_sawhill_ch3.pdf


http://elibrary.worldbank.org/docse...est&checksum=A48EEA64E58D3D448F101492CE426D5B

and the income gap just gets wider:



Income inequality in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

its amazing how attached some of you are to your fairytales, despite overwhelming evidence that reality is quite a different story.
Click to expand...

What is this? WHAT is this? Statistical analysis!? That has no place in arguments about broad social and economic trends! You just make assertions and deflect when anyone asks you to back up your point. Think about how easy scientific writing would be if we follow the Rocketman formula. Don't have to prove anything, make a claim, and when people want proof claim that they have to be hand fed information; but then don't give any information.

(pssst, that was sarcasm).
 
marywollstonecraft said:
more American myths.

the majority of americans BELIEVE this to be the case, however research quite clearly shows there is LESS intergenerational mobility in the US than in comparable nations:



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socio-economic_mobility_in_the_United_States

There are numerous primary sources that verify this:

http://www.brookings.edu/~/media/re... sawhill/02_economic_mobility_sawhill_ch3.pdf


http://elibrary.worldbank.org/docse...est&checksum=A48EEA64E58D3D448F101492CE426D5B

and the income gap just gets wider:



Income inequality in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

its amazing how attached some of you are to your fairytales, despite overwhelming evidence that reality is quite a different story.
Click to expand...


and it is amazing how liberals become so programmed by liberally funded institutions and studies, well no it is really predictable
 
Ikari said:
What is this? WHAT is this? Statistical analysis!? That has no place in arguments about broad social and economic trends! You just make assertions and deflect when anyone asks you to back up your point. Think about how easy scientific writing would be if we follow the Rocketman formula. Don't have to prove anything, make a claim, and when people want proof claim that they have to be hand fed information; but then don't give any information.

(pssst, that was sarcasm).
Click to expand...

people like you and her only accept liberal programming, why would I waste my time?
 
Rocketman said:
people like you and her only accept liberal programming, why would I waste my time?
Click to expand...

I know, I know. Statistics is well known liberal math! I don't even know why we still use it! Damned commies!

And you know what's leftist, socialist, liberal BS? Partial Differential Equations.
 
Someone is going to be rich, someone else is going to be poor. There isn't a problem. Want to be rich? Follow economics and build wealth for yourself. Find a high demand market, get an education where the job market for people within your discipline are needed and make money. Want to be rich? Be willing to make financial risks and invest money that will earn you a good return or lose value.
 
Ikari said:
I know, I know. Statistics is well known liberal math! I don't even know why we still use it! Damned commies!

And you know what's leftist, socialist, liberal BS? Partial Differential Equations.
Click to expand...

I didn't do too well with those... :eek:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom