View Poll Results: How serious a problem is the divide between the wealthy and the rest of us?

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  • Not a problem at all.

    35 28.46%
  • A problem, but not a serious one.

    8 6.50%
  • A fairly serious problem.

    42 34.15%
  • It's not just a "problem." It's a catastrophe that is only getting worse.

    38 30.89%
  • This divide does not exist.

    0 0%
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Thread: The divide between the rich and the rest

  1. #381
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    marywollstonecraft's Avatar
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    Re: The divide between the rich and the rest

    Quote Originally Posted by Federalist View Post
    Correct, there is no consensus.



    I tend to see the collection of taxes as an initiation of interpersonal violence with the goal of taking another person's property. As such, I can't support them, as I regard all initiations of violence against people who have harmed no other person or other person's property to be unjustified.
    whenever I see people talking about the coercive powers of the state, I think of Marxism - specifically, people such as Louis Althusser.

    Of course, you do reference the goal as the taking of personal property, but the fact that you decry "state force" in this way does put you in with some strange bedfellows.
    Every political good carried to the extreme must be productive of evil.

  2. #382
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    Re: The divide between the rich and the rest

    Quote Originally Posted by Federalist View Post
    Correct, there is no consensus.

    I tend to see the collection of taxes as an initiation of interpersonal violence with the goal of taking another person's property. As such, I can't support them, as I regard all initiations of violence against people who have harmed no other person or other person's property to be unjustified.
    Then you may as well kiss government goodbye because I'm pretty sure a system of supporting the government and the military through voluntary donations simply won't work.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
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  3. #383
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    cpwill's Avatar
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    Re: The divide between the rich and the rest

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    FICA was never meant to be part of the general budget, so as long as the SSA is in the black, which will be for a long time, I don't see the issue.

    But, hey, if the Federal Reserve wants to quit honoring it's obligations then everyone is pretty much SOL.
    SSA was in the red as of last year, and is currently assessed to remain there in perpetuity. FICA wasn't supposed to be part of the general budget, but Congresscritters made it effectively so anyway. You can be mad at them all you like, but you can't go back in time and change events to ones more suited to the present.


    However, that remains a strawman. There is no plausible way to balance the budget overnight without deep reductions in entitlements and defense.

  4. #384
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    Re: The divide between the rich and the rest

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    It's funny, a little over a decade ago they managed to balance the budget without cutting into SSA or welfare. Now it's impossible, according to some. Seems like a scam to me.
    Then you haven't been paying attention to the growing costs of our entitlements, and I would urge you to self-educate. SSA and Medicare/Medicaid cost alot more than they did in the 90's.




  5. #385
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    Re: The divide between the rich and the rest

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    SSA was in the red as of last year, and is currently assessed to remain there in perpetuity. FICA wasn't supposed to be part of the general budget, but Congresscritters made it effectively so anyway. You can be mad at them all you like, but you can't go back in time and change events to ones more suited to the present.


    However, that remains a strawman. There is no plausible way to balance the budget overnight without deep reductions in entitlements and defense.
    OK, so the SSA Trust Fund, instead of being $2,677 billion at the end of 2011 was at $2,622 billion at the end of 2012. I suppose you can call it "in the red" even if you have $2.6 trillion in the bank? I wonder how many times IBM, GE, MicroSoft and Apple have been "in the red" - and those are profit businesses, not (essentially) not-for-profits. LOL!


    Then they can take the SSA back out of the budget and hand it it's $2.6+ trillion in Treasury notes. Yearly budget deficit problem from "entitlements" solved.
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 05-02-13 at 09:14 AM.
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  6. #386
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    Re: The divide between the rich and the rest

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Then you haven't been paying attention to the growing costs of our entitlements, and I would urge you to self-educate. SSA and Medicare/Medicaid cost alot more than they did in the 90's.

    http://www.heritage.org/~/media/Imag...600&h=551&as=1
    I'm sorry, I was unaware that FICA paid for Medicaid or any other "entitlement" spending except SSA/Medicare. When did that happen?

    And I'm pretty sure SSA was only "in the red" one year in the last couple of decades, that being last year. Quit spinning BS.
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 05-02-13 at 09:13 AM.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

  7. #387
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    Re: The divide between the rich and the rest

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    OK, so the SSA Trust Fund, instead of being $2,677 billion at the end of 2011 was at $2,622 billion at the end of 2012. I suppose you can call it "in the red" even if you have $2.6 trillion in the bank?
    They don't have $2.6 Trillion in the bank. They have a bunch of promissory notes from the General Fund.

    If your Checking Account spends money in your Savings account, but writes a note pretty-promising to pay your savings account back in the future, your wealth does not increase by the worth of the note. It decreases by the amount you have spent.

    But yeah. CBO says SS is in the red and is projected to stay there.

  8. #388
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    Re: The divide between the rich and the rest

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    I'm sorry, I was unaware that FICA paid for Medicaid. When did that happen?
    What Is FICA

    ...Under the Federal Insurance Contributions Act (FICA) 12.4% of earned income up to an annual limit must be paid into Social Security, and an additional 2.9% must be paid into Medicare....

    Medicaid is run out of the same dept. However, that's not really here or there, as "what FICA pays for" is not the determiner of our entitlements.

    And I'm pretty sure SSA was only "in the red" one year in the last couple of decades, that being last year. Quit spinning BS.
    Social Security to run $45 Bn deficit in 2011, CBO says

    CBO: Social Security to run Permanent Annual Deficits

    etc...


    People don't like to hear it. But fiscal reality is that SS is not going to make it in its' current form through the 2020s, for the simple enough reason that there will not be sufficient funds in the General Fund to cover the gap.

  9. #389
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    Re: The divide between the rich and the rest

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    They don't have $2.6 Trillion in the bank. They have a bunch of promissory notes from the General Fund.
    You mean from Treasury, right? And when Treasury stops honoring it's obligations you let me know so I can stock up on guns and ammo.


    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    If your Checking Account spends money in your Savings account, but writes a note pretty-promising to pay your savings account back in the future, your wealth does not increase by the worth of the note. It decreases by the amount you have spent.
    You of all people should know national spending and finance is completely different than personal spending and finance.


    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    But yeah. CBO says SS is in the red and is projected to stay there.
    It's going to be awhile before the Trust Fund runs out so I'm not worried.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

  10. #390
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    Re: The divide between the rich and the rest

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    What Is FICA

    ...Under the Federal Insurance Contributions Act (FICA) 12.4% of earned income up to an annual limit must be paid into Social Security, and an additional 2.9% must be paid into Medicare....

    Medicaid is run out of the same dept. However, that's not really here or there, as "what FICA pays for" is not the determiner of our entitlements.

    Social Security to run $45 Bn deficit in 2011, CBO says

    CBO: Social Security to run Permanent Annual Deficits

    etc...
    Then I guess they're not any better than you at reading the 2011 Trustee's Report:

    https://www.socialsecurity.gov/oact/TRSUM/index.html


    Yes, what FICA pays for makes a big difference. You and yours keep trying to shove SSA and welfare together and they're not the same. Medicaid is not the same, either, just in case you don't count that as welfare.



    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    People don't like to hear it. But fiscal reality is that SS is not going to make it in its' current form through the 2020s, for the simple enough reason that there will not be sufficient funds in the General Fund to cover the gap.
    Actually, it is projected to make it through the 2020's, just not much beyond. But, then again, SSA isn't supposed to be for profit and never was, it's supposed to be not-for-profit. Financial developments since 1983, when they last changed the rules, have modified the outcome. But that doesn't mean I'm going to trust some Wall St. firm to handle all my retirement money. We've all seen too well what sometimes happens behind the doors on Wall St.
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 05-02-13 at 09:33 AM.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

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