View Poll Results: How serious a problem is the divide between the wealthy and the rest of us?

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  • Not a problem at all.

    35 28.46%
  • A problem, but not a serious one.

    8 6.50%
  • A fairly serious problem.

    42 34.15%
  • It's not just a "problem." It's a catastrophe that is only getting worse.

    38 30.89%
  • This divide does not exist.

    0 0%
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Thread: The divide between the rich and the rest

  1. #351
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    Re: The divide between the rich and the rest

    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Light View Post
    Yes, it would have to start living within its means and conserving.
    Sort of. Our options are: 1. Global Fiscal Collapse and/or 2. Let Old People Die En Masse.


    Neither strike me as a terribly desirable option.


    The idea of constant "progress" and productive expansion would have to be tossed out in favor of more manageable resources; which is something the whole human species has to do anyway if we want to have a hope of getting out of the current era in one piece.
    Nah. Human ingenuity seems to be (thus far) fairly infinite in its' ability to find new ways to put resources to more productive uses. The Malthusian error was, is, and will probably continue to be precisely that.

    The debt system is destroying this planet. Forget the economy for a second. The economy is a human invention, it ultimately does not matter. I'm talking about the real, physical, quantifiable annual bounty of this planet.
    Yeah. The Planet is fine. She's a tough ole bird, is Mother Earth.

  2. #352
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    Re: The divide between the rich and the rest

    Quote Originally Posted by marywollstonecraft View Post
    I don't think you get it.

    Hobbes was writing in quite a different context from today, however you have his ideas about the state completely out of context anyway.

    you should read up on hobbes, and you should read up on the period he was writing in.
    I have my Bachelors in History and my Masters in Poli Sci. I'm aware. That reduces the fact that he was correct on the issue under discussion not at all. As demonstrated not least by the fact that you are unable to offer up an alternative.

    I don't condone the use of violence, although I recognize that there may be some extreme cases which pose a serious threat which the government has to have the power to protect its citizens from. but these are relatively rare.
    So you oppose the enforcement of laws you support?

    quite possibly, the fact that in the US individuals who subscribe to extremist anti government conspiracy propaganda have access to arsenals of military style weapons makes it more likely that your government needs to have access to the use of force.
    possibly. Some of us value our freedom, here in the US, and desire to retain the ability to defend it. Not so common across the Western World, which largely seems to value more their benefits. That being said, the fundamental nature of governance (that it is the use of force to coerce behavior) remains.
    Last edited by cpwill; 04-28-13 at 09:05 AM.

  3. #353
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    marywollstonecraft's Avatar
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    Re: The divide between the rich and the rest

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    I have my Bachelors in History and my Masters in Poli Sci. I'm aware. That reduces the fact that he was correct on the issue under discussion not at all. As demonstrated not least by the fact that you are unable to offer up an alternative.
    nevertheless, you stated:

    Hobbes was right - the single greatest repository of violence - of terror - in a country is the government itself.

    in stating this, you are not demonstrating that you are that familiar with Hobbes. And I am not sure why it is all that relevant to anything I have said.

    So you oppose the enforcement of laws you support?
    no.

    possibly. Some of us value our freedom, here in the US, and desire to retain the ability to defend it. Not so common across the Western World, which largely seems to value more their benefits. That being said, the fundamental nature of governance (that it is the use of force to coerce behavior) remains.
    your understanding of "governance" is different from mine, or indeed, from that of anyone I know
    Every political good carried to the extreme must be productive of evil.

  4. #354
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    Re: The divide between the rich and the rest

    Quote Originally Posted by marywollstonecraft View Post
    your understanding of "governance" is different from mine, or indeed, from that of anyone I know
    To many people, "governance" simply means the issuance of edicts backed by the threat of force. In some cases this can be just, such as when the edict is, "Don't harm other people." But in many cases this can be unjust, such as when the edit is, "If you grow this particular plant, we will throw you in a cage."

  5. #355
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    Re: The divide between the rich and the rest

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Sort of. Our options are: 1. Global Fiscal Collapse and/or 2. Let Old People Die En Masse.


    Neither strike me as a terribly desirable option.




    Nah. Human ingenuity seems to be (thus far) fairly infinite in its' ability to find new ways to put resources to more productive uses. The Malthusian error was, is, and will probably continue to be precisely that.



    Yeah. The Planet is fine. She's a tough ole bird, is Mother Earth.
    All evidence contradicts what you're saying, but I guess continue to blindly believe what you want.

  6. #356
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    Re: The divide between the rich and the rest

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Sort of. Our options are: 1. Global Fiscal Collapse and/or 2. Let Old People Die En Masse.
    Doesn't (1) beget (2)?

    Nah. Human ingenuity seems to be (thus far) fairly infinite in its' ability to find new ways to put resources to more productive uses. The Malthusian error was, is, and will probably continue to be precisely that.
    We need to discover a fairly infinite new energy source then. Malthus didn't predict oil's impact, and we haven't stumbled on anything to replace it. It has allowed our population to flourish, but just as it has given, it will take away. There is nothing very promising on the horizon. People can survive without oil, but nowhere near 7 billion of them.

  7. #357
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    Re: The divide between the rich and the rest

    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Light View Post
    All evidence contradicts what you're saying, but I guess continue to blindly believe what you want.
    I would love to see you balance the budget immediately without massive cuts to either entitlements or defense.

    As for Malthusianism being supported by evidence?

  8. #358
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    Re: The divide between the rich and the rest

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    Doesn't (1) beget (2)?
    Fair point. Though at least (2) would be somewhat delayed.

    We need to discover a fairly infinite new energy source then. Malthus didn't predict oil's impact, and we haven't stumbled on anything to replace it. It has allowed our population to flourish, but just as it has given, it will take away. There is nothing very promising on the horizon. People can survive without oil, but nowhere near 7 billion of them.
    1. Accessible Oil Reserves keep increasing along with technology.

    2. A crushed tube the size of a thread spool has brought the United States one step closer to harnessing nuclear fusion as a clean, almost limitless power source.


    you may one day have to change your name.

  9. #359
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    Re: The divide between the rich and the rest

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Fair point. Though at least (2) would be somewhat delayed.

    1. Accessible Oil Reserves keep increasing along with technology.
    What about EROEI?

    The day fusion becomes a reality, I will both change my names as well as shift all my investments to long/aggressive as quickly as possible.

  10. #360
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    Re: The divide between the rich and the rest

    Quote Originally Posted by Federalist View Post
    To many people, "governance" simply means the issuance of edicts backed by the threat of force. In some cases this can be just, such as when the edict is, "Don't harm other people." But in many cases this can be unjust, such as when the edit is, "If you grow this particular plant, we will throw you in a cage."
    to me, governance is not about force. It is about recognizing that some people don't seem to have an understanding of appropriate boundaries, so their actions have an overall negative impact in some way.

    putting governance measures in place is about ensuring that we have a common understanding of what we need to do for the organization/society to function effectively, and there is guidance so that we can achieve better outcomes.

    WRT growing plants .... I think the drug laws in the US are harsher than in most places, but if you are growing with intent to sell or supply, then there are pretty clear reasons why this will be regarded as a criminal activity.

    the research shows that overall, marijuana is harmful to health, and if it is to be supplied, there need to be controls in place.

    That said, I am not convinced that all laws relating to the cultivation of marijuana are really about health - and there should be some honest discussion about that.
    Every political good carried to the extreme must be productive of evil.

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