View Poll Results: How serious a problem is the divide between the wealthy and the rest of us?

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  • Not a problem at all.

    35 28.46%
  • A problem, but not a serious one.

    8 6.50%
  • A fairly serious problem.

    42 34.15%
  • It's not just a "problem." It's a catastrophe that is only getting worse.

    38 30.89%
  • This divide does not exist.

    0 0%
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Thread: The divide between the rich and the rest

  1. #261
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    Re: The divide between the rich and the rest

    Quote Originally Posted by marywollstonecraft View Post
    I don't think you get it.

    when you need to rely on terms like "nanny staters" it becomes obvious that you confuse ideology with economics.
    I made no statements regarding economics. I was commenting on those who feel justified in controlling other people's behavior and taking their property.

  2. #262
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    Re: The divide between the rich and the rest

    Quote Originally Posted by ReformCollege View Post
    And whats your point? Let me ask you a question, do you shop at a market that best suits your needs, or do you decide to pay more for a lower quality service just because? Free markets means money will flow where the return is the highest and that in turn ensures maximum efficiency. Taxes are no different, without a free diffusion of money from one area to another, countries would have no motivation to maximize the efficiency of their tax systems. Otherwise, the dead-weight losses would just continue to grow larger and larger while R&D and capital investments continue to grow smaller and smaller.

    I'm just waiting for the day when our government stops thinking they can fit a square peg into a round hole; and decides to develop a land value tax.
    I think I made my point in my last post. Although in terms of taxes I will add that allowing too greater gulf to emerge within society is always dangerous as it risks social and political unrest and this serves no ones interest.

    Widening gap between rich and poor threatens to swallow us all | Emma Seery | Global development | guardian.co.uk

  3. #263
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    Re: The divide between the rich and the rest

    Quote Originally Posted by marywollstonecraft View Post
    another one who believes fairy tales!

    I guess you don't know anything about Scandinavian economies?
    They do do one thing right. They have extremely low product market regulation and very low barriers to free trade. They rank very high on economic freedom, and the labor union-business relationship is based on cooperation, rather then law. It seems the left wing in this country wants all the results of their model without the free market aspects of it.

    Now, let's address you and your fairy tales.


    Are poverty rates in Scandinavian countries low because Scandinavian-style “socialism” works, or are they low because Scandinavians work?
    In fairness, it should be noted that they are not the ONLY countries with low poverty rates. Ultra-capitalist Switzerland, which no one would mistake for a socialist country and which has a population similar in size to that of Sweden, appears to have poverty rates lower than those in the Scandinavian utopias.
    But an additional reason for the low poverty rates in Scandinavian countries is that these are countries that have very few immigrants. Poverty rates are high almost everywhere in Europe among migrants into those countries. Scandinavian countries with the exception of Sweden have very few immigrants, both in absolute numbers and in terms of the portion of the overall population.
    Separate poverty data for the migrant populations in Scandinavian countries are available and there are numerous indications that these are quite high. According to one study, “While first and second generation immigrants constituted 44% of the poor children in 1997, they were 65% of all poor children in Sweden in 2008. Only 5% of native Swedish children live in poverty. For immigrant children with both parents born outside of the Sweden, the child poverty rate is 39%.” Poverty rates have also been shown to be high for immigrants in Denmark. According to a recent study of poverty rates among immigrants in all Scandinavian countries, “While native children face yearly poverty risks of less than 10 percent in all three countries and for all years investigated the increasing proportion of immigrant children with an origin in middle and low income countries have poverty risks that varies from 38 and up to as much as 58 percent.”

    So Scandinavian “socialism” is doing a remarkably poor job in eliminating poverty among non-Scandinavians living in those Scandinavian utopias
    One way to test our question is to examine Scandinavians who do not live in Scandinavia. There is a large Scandinavian population that lives in the bad-old-selfish-materialist-capitalist United States. Well, it turns out that Scandinavians living under its selfish capitalism also have remarkably low poverty rates. Economists Geranda Notten and Chris de Neubourg have studied Scandinavians living in the US and in Sweden and compared their poverty rates. They estimate the poverty rate for Scandinavians living in the United States as 6.7%, half that of the general U.S population. Using measures and definitions of poverty like those used in the US, the same analysts calculate the poverty rate in Sweden using the American poverty threshold as an identical 6.7% (although it was 10% using an alternative measure). So low poverty among Scandinavians seems to be because Scandinavians work, whether or not Scandinavian “socialism” can be said to work.
    Does Scandinavian Socialism Work? | FrontPage Magazine

    Sorry your system isn't all that its cracked up to be. Two things are quite predictable from examining the Scandinavian system.
    1. If the U.S. were to stop letting poor people into our country and were to strengthen our economic freedom and ensure that everyone worked, we would also have comparably low poverty rates.

    2. If we had taxes as high as those of the Scandinavian countries, we would also see a large population of our brightest and hardest working migrating out of the U.S.

  4. #264
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    Re: The divide between the rich and the rest

    Quote Originally Posted by marywollstonecraft View Post
    so they don't invest?

    they just give to charity and then spend all their time on forums complaining about the poor?

    where I live we don't do it that way.
    You're missing the point. They both invest, which creates jobs for the poor, and donate money to charity for the poor. They don't waste their time worrying about income inequality because they are actually out there making it in the world.

    Usually its the middle class who spends their time on forums complaining about the poor when they see the poor spending their time complaining about the rich. Most rich people I know are very generous. They only complain about the poor when the poor acts entitled rather then grateful for their generosity. Its like that bratty kid who whines about what he got for Christmas.

  5. #265
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    Re: The divide between the rich and the rest

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    1. Granted, equal outcome is easier with a very small range of circumstances, especially when generally ranging from dead to alive with only food quantity in between.
    2. Let's not confuse equal ourcime with equal opportunity. Women were property in ancient society and surely not granted any kind of political or legal equality.
    1. Exactly
    2. I'm not confusing anything. If communism was about equal opportunity and not equal outcomes I'd probably be a communist. Capitalism is about equal opportunity, communism is not.

  6. #266
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    Re: The divide between the rich and the rest

    Quote Originally Posted by Chatter View Post
    I think I made my point in my last post. Although in terms of taxes I will add that allowing too greater gulf to emerge within society is always dangerous as it risks social and political unrest and this serves no ones interest.

    Widening gap between rich and poor threatens to swallow us all | Emma Seery | Global development | guardian.co.uk
    You're putting the cart before the horse. Fix our tax code, strengthen our jobs training programs to meet the needs of our country, reduce inner city crime and the wealth inequality will take care of itself.

  7. #267
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    Re: The divide between the rich and the rest

    Quote Originally Posted by 274ina View Post
    THis says it all.....................


    A very eye-opening video. Unfortunately, most conservatives and vulgar 'libertarians' will dismiss it as class envy. They like to ignore the fact that this is not what an open market is supposed to produce.
    "Men did not make the earth ... it is the value of the improvement only, and not the earth itself, that is individual property... Every proprietor owes to the community a ground rent for the land which he holds." -- Thomas Paine, Agrarian Justice
    http://www.wealthandwant.com/

  8. #268
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    Re: The divide between the rich and the rest

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    Someone is going to be rich, someone else is going to be poor. There isn't a problem.
    Same argument the nobles made.
    "Men did not make the earth ... it is the value of the improvement only, and not the earth itself, that is individual property... Every proprietor owes to the community a ground rent for the land which he holds." -- Thomas Paine, Agrarian Justice
    http://www.wealthandwant.com/

  9. #269
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    Re: The divide between the rich and the rest

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    as responses go, that is a complete fail. ITs not my faul lots of people are unable to control their own destinies.
    I believe in allowing people to control their own destinies, but to pretend the State and elite are not restricting our abilities to do so is vulgar libertarianism at its worst.

    A summary of this thread:

    “Vulgar libertarian apologists for capitalism use the term "free market" in an equivocal sense: they seem to have trouble remembering, from one moment to the next, whether they’re defending actually existing capitalism or free market principles. So we get the standard boilerplate article arguing that the rich can’t get rich at the expense of the poor, because "that’s not how the free market works" — implicitly assuming that this is a free market. When prodded, they’ll grudgingly admit that the present system is not a free market, and that it includes a lot of state intervention on behalf of the rich. But as soon as they think they can get away with it, they go right back to defending the wealth of existing corporations on the basis of "free market principles." ~ Kevin Carson
    Last edited by Geoist; 04-25-13 at 02:39 PM.
    "Men did not make the earth ... it is the value of the improvement only, and not the earth itself, that is individual property... Every proprietor owes to the community a ground rent for the land which he holds." -- Thomas Paine, Agrarian Justice
    http://www.wealthandwant.com/

  10. #270
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    Re: The divide between the rich and the rest

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoist View Post
    Same argument the nobles made.
    Sure but there was little if nothing one could do to determine whether they would be noble or peasants.

    There is a great deal someone in the United States can do to determine where they fit in the financial spectrum and almost all of that is tied up in education, which we basically give completely free to the poor.

    Someone stocking shelves in Walmart isn't doing so because they spent considerable time and effort perusing a better future for themselves. Likewise, someone performing open heart surgery right now isn't doing so because he lazily drifted through life.

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