View Poll Results: Should we have have invaded?

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Thread: Another Iraq War Poll

  1. #81
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    Re: Another Iraq War Poll

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    But now you're back to inventions (lies!), not the truth.
    Well, I wouldn't say lies necessarily. As I noted before, we usually talk about propaganda in the form of obvious falsities that illustrate a conclusion being reached before evidence.

    When we do not have the luxury of such a tell (which is not always a lie and propaganda, but sometimes honest error), we must discern motive and intent. No one is gonna tell you that they are feeding you propaganda and there is no warning label that comes with it - you must figure it out.

  2. #82
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    Re: Another Iraq War Poll

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    False. Any information disseminated for the purpose of a preconceived conclusion is propaganda.
    Once again, how exactly do you determine that?
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  3. #83
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    Re: Another Iraq War Poll

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Well, I wouldn't say lies necessarily. As I noted before, we usually talk about propaganda in the form of obvious falsities that illustrate a conclusion being reached before evidence.

    When we do not have the luxury of such a tell (which is not always a lie and propaganda, but sometimes honest error), we must discern motive and intent. No one is gonna tell you that they are feeding you propaganda and there is no warning label that comes with it - you must figure it out.
    So propaganda becomes a matter of personal feeling. If you like what's being said, it isn't, and if you don't, it is.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

  4. #84
    global liberation

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    Re: Another Iraq War Poll

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    Once again, how exactly do you determine that?
    By examining the evidence and determining:

    1. Is it legit. If not, was deception intentional.
    2. Does it lead to the conclusion presented. If not, why is it being used as such.

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    So propaganda becomes a matter of personal feeling. If you like what's being said, it isn't, and if you don't, it is.
    No, it's a matter of motive. That can be determined conclusively sometimes and not so much others. I'm sorry I cannot give you absolutism, the world just isn't like that.

  5. #85
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    Re: Another Iraq War Poll

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    By examining the evidence and determining:

    1. Is it legit. If not, was deception intentional.
    2. Does it lead to the conclusion presented. If not, why is it being used as such.
    1. I can certainly agree with this and have not actually assumed intentional falsehood at any time. Making up lies or fraud is very obviously propaganda.
    2. Again, this kind of propaganda is pretty easily shown, and I also wasn't assuming this.

    Propaganda, usually does lead to the conclusion being presented and is usually not a deliberate falsehood. Advertising laws have made both of those approaches illegal for products and PR men have gotten very good at propaganda which avoids both of those pitfalls. It's half-truths, almost miraculous timing, and the use of certain connotations (& sometimes cultural meanings) that make modern PR so persuasive. That doesn't mean it's not propaganda. I see virtually every commercial (with some obvious exceptions) as propaganda in some form or other - don't you?

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    No, it's a matter of motive. That can be determined conclusively sometimes and not so much others. I'm sorry I cannot give you absolutism, the world just isn't like that.
    Motive and intent are extremely difficult to determine and even then it will be colored by your own beliefs.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

  6. #86
    global liberation

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    Re: Another Iraq War Poll

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    Motive and intent are extremely difficult to determine and even then it will be colored by your own beliefs.
    Fair enough, but there's not much absolute certainty when discussing truthful propaganda. It's a tough world and not everything is a math equation.

  7. #87
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    Re: Another Iraq War Poll

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post

    So, why is propaganda mostly associated with falsities? Because (except as noted above), falsities generally indicate that the conclusion was reached before evidence was sought. Thus, basically, propaganda is improper (backwards) science.
    While not wholly in agreement/disagreement on the general indicators pointing to a conclusion reached prior to seeking evidence, my estimation of the more general population's take regarding propaganda is that propagandist often knows, has already investigated, discovered the position perceived in his best interest and is busy promoting that position.

    Make sense?

  8. #88
    global liberation

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    Re: Another Iraq War Poll

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaugingcatenate View Post
    While not wholly in agreement/disagreement on the general indicators pointing to a conclusion reached prior to seeking evidence, my estimation of the more general population's take regarding propaganda is that propagandist often knows, has already investigated, discovered the position perceived in his best interest and is busy promoting that position.

    Make sense?
    Yes, motive. Specifically, having ones conclusion (cause) already established and then using information not for the purpose of informing or explaining but for the purpose of the (predetermined) cause.

  9. #89
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    Re: Another Iraq War Poll

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Yes, motive. Specifically, having ones conclusion (cause) already established and then using information not for the purpose of informing or explaining but for the purpose of the (predetermined) cause.

    Very well could be, but in the strict interpretation of the word, propaganda, could be just informing and explaining as well as the predetermined cause which one may feel to be fully truthful and honorable... but is usually, with the general use of the word, considered less than honest about the topic.

    I mean if splitting hairs.

  10. #90
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    Re: Another Iraq War Poll

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaugingcatenate View Post
    Very well could be, but in the strict interpretation of the word, propaganda, could be just informing and explaining as well as the predetermined cause which one may feel to be fully truthful and honorable...
    No. If the purpose is to inform and explain, then it is not "FOR the purpose of" the (necessarily predetermined) cause.

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