View Poll Results: How important is voting?

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  • Very

    39 63.93%
  • Important, but futile

    7 11.48%
  • Meh

    4 6.56%
  • Not very

    2 3.28%
  • Not at all

    3 4.92%
  • Other

    6 9.84%
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Thread: How important is voting?

  1. #11
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    Re: How important is voting?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Disagree fully. It is a duty not a right.
    A control question: Do you think military service should be a duty - all adults, male and female, disabled and conscientious objectors included?

  2. #12
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    Re: How important is voting?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrylek View Post
    Aha, sure. Like the rights to speak freely, associate and (here in USA) bear arms mean we all have to stay in large, heavily armed groups 24/7, talking politics non-stop.

    I understand that there are a few democratic countries (Australia, Brazil, one canton in Switzerland all other cantons are making fun of....) where voting is compulsory, on paper, but since balloting is secret, it is not really enforceable.

    Correct me if I am wrong, Spain had compulsory voting on books in the beginning of the 20th century, but it was abandoned: just too silly.
    No clue on Spain since I aint Spanish. However in Denmark, where I am from.. we dont have compulsory voting which is fine.. when you have voter turnout of over 80%. What I am talking about is countries where voting has become a chore rather than a right and privilege.. they need a kick in the rear if you ask me. Having a voter turn out that barely breaks 50% is beyond pathetic.. and when I am talking about voter turnout.. it is not based on registered voters, but eligible voters.
    PeteEU

  3. #13
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    Re: How important is voting?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrylek View Post
    A control question: Do you think military service should be a duty - all adults, male and female, disabled and conscientious objectors included?
    It is in my country and many others for males. Granted not all males do military service since we dont have a massive army, but there is a lottery. As for females.. well that has to do with tradition more than anything. Disabled.. come on... and conscientious objectors dont exist.. just cowards and religious freaks.. no they should not be excused.
    PeteEU

  4. #14
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    Re: How important is voting?

    It depends on what you *know* about the set of potential voters with respect to the probability distributions of them voting and who they vote for.

    IMO, there are many systems (e.g. weighted sum) which could be used to minimize the damage done by the "not-so-bright" voters. Pure democracy, where every vote counts equally, is rarely ideal.
    "With me everything turns into mathematics."
    "It is not enough to have a good mind. The main thing is to use it well."
    "It is truth very certain that, when it is not in one's power to determine what is true, we ought to follow what is more probable." -- Rene Descartes

  5. #15
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    Re: How important is voting?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    No clue on Spain since I aint Spanish. However in Denmark, where I am from...
    My mistake. (Love Denmark, by the way. Of all European cities, KÝbenhavn is where I feel most relaxed and, strangely, "at home". (Although London and Krakow come close).

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    What I am talking about is countries where voting has become a chore rather than a right and privilege.. they need a kick in the rear if you ask me. Having a voter turn out that barely breaks 50% is beyond pathetic.. and when I am talking about voter turnout.. it is not based on registered voters, but eligible voters.
    I understand the sentiment, but still: the State of a free country does not own its population. It's function is to prevent people from doing harm to each other, but beyond that - they are just people who happen to reside within a given jurisdiction - most of them by the accident of birth. They cannot be forced to be good citizens, or good anything. "Good" cannot be forced, by definition. It is "bad" that we use force to deal with, no?

  6. #16
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    Re: How important is voting?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    It is in my country and many others for males. Granted not all males do military service since we dont have a massive army, but there is a lottery. As for females.. well that has to do with tradition more than anything. Disabled.. come on... and conscientious objectors dont exist.. just cowards and religious freaks.. no they should not be excused.
    Conscientious objectors don't exist?

    When I was growing up in Moscow, USSR, a Lithuanian, Catholic teenager who lived on our street chopped off two fingers on his hand, to avoid that excellent Afghan adventure. No one among my peers thought he was a coward or a freak. He was a hero. (The Soviet prison he was heading to for doing what he did was not any less dangerous than Kandahar)

    We all assumed that we are voiceless, helpless slaves; I was fervently plotting my escape - but I did not resist (discounting a few illegally copied "bad books" and other such minor acts of dissent). He did. He refused to be property of the State.

    His standards were higher than ours.

    Why should I think that an American Mennonite opposed to all and any military service is different? Because I hated that political regime, and mostly like this one? Doesn't sound very convincing.

  7. #17
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    Re: How important is voting?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrylek View Post
    My mistake. (Love Denmark, by the way. Of all European cities, KÝbenhavn is where I feel most relaxed and, strangely, "at home". (Although London and Krakow come close).
    Its just the winter weather thats the problem.. and the socialists there.

    I understand the sentiment, but still: the State of a free country does not own its population. It's function is to prevent people from doing harm to each other, but beyond that - they are just people who happen to reside within a given jurisdiction - most of them by the accident of birth. They cannot be forced to be good citizens, or good anything. "Good" cannot be forced, by definition. It is "bad" that we use force to deal with, no?
    I find this troubling.. what do you define as good and bad?

    I am not saying democracy is perfect, and I do believe sometimes politicians have to do the right thing and not the popular thing.. but not voting will never change anything and only empower the power hungry to do bad things.

    Let me put it this way.. had American's actually come out and voted by Danish turnout standards in 2000.. then we would not have had Bush. But because almost 50% of American's choose not to get off their fat asses, then the world was stuck with a mini dictator and his party of henchmen that has pushed the world into war. I know you probably see Bush as a savior or something but my point is that there are far more democrats than republicans in the US, so it is in your vested interest to keep the turn out low because that is how you maintain your power. Now it does not have to be the US we are talking about, because in low turnout countries across the planet.. you have the same problems. In fact in Denmark it is the reverse almost.. low turnout means the Social Democrats often gain power/win an election.. but we are talking about mid 75% turnout then heh...

    Point is, that people should feel obligated to go vote.. sure work, sickness, being abroad and so on.. might prevent you from voting (although there is absentee voting in some countries.. cough), but you should do your damnest to vote.. even blank if need be.. but VOTE!
    PeteEU

  8. #18
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    Re: How important is voting?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrylek View Post
    Conscientious objectors don't exist?

    When I was growing up in Moscow, USSR, a Lithuanian, Catholic teenager who lived on our street chopped off two fingers on his hand, to avoid that excellent Afghan adventure. No one among my peers thought he was a coward or a freak. He was a hero. (The Soviet prison he was heading to for doing what he did was not any less dangerous than Kandahar)

    We all assumed that we are voiceless, helpless slaves; I was fervently plotting my escape - but I did not resist (discounting a few illegally copied "bad books" and other such minor acts of dissent). He did. He refused to be property of the State.

    His standards were higher than ours.

    Why should I think that an American Mennonite opposed to all and any military service is different? Because I hated that political regime, and mostly like this one? Doesn't sound very convincing.
    Oh they do, but in a democracy.. a real one.. they are cowards or religious freaks.

    My point is, many of these objectors do it to just avoid getting into the military because it will spoil their fun time and money making ability for a year or two.
    PeteEU

  9. #19
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    Re: How important is voting?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    . I know you probably see Bush as a savior
    You "know"? You do? Based on what?


    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    there are far more democrats than republicans in the US, so it is in your vested interest to keep the turn out low because that is how you maintain your power.
    First of all, this is incorrect. There are a little more self-professed Democrats than self-professed Republicans in the US, but the Democratic advantage is negligible comparing to the bulk of the independent, neither-Dem-nor-GOP, "fiscally conservative, socially liberal" voters. I am one of them.

    Secondly, "I" don't have any power to maintain. I voted for Gary Johnson in the last election. One of the reasons that I did, despite the obvious futility of such gesture? - because he would never consider compulsory voting - or compulsory military service - as anything - well, "considerable"....
    Last edited by Cyrylek; 04-15-13 at 07:55 AM.

  10. #20
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    Re: How important is voting?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post



    I find this troubling.. what do you define as good and bad?
    You know, the usual: coercion and fraud - bad, freedom of choice and empathy - good. The Golden Rule, and all that jazz....

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