"The House of Horrors" Gosnell case

DVSentinel said:

Simple answer, stop the organized/legalized murder of children.

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AGENT J said:

1.) Zef is accurate, murder is not

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2.) false not all abortions have to terminate a ZEF, sorry you are factually wrong
3.) false again by the medical definition of abortion
4.) actually its not, your ONE definition doesnt cover them all sorry, there are many,would you like more?

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Dicitionaries
Definition of abortion in Oxford Dictionaries (British & World English)
1 [mass noun] the deliberate termination of a human pregnancy, most often performed during the first 28 weeks:concerns such as abortion and euthanasia
abortion noun (END OF PREGNANCY) - definition in British English Dictionary & Thesaurus - Cambridge Dictionary Online
END OF PREGNANCY
American Heritage Dictionary Entry: abortion
b. Any of various procedures that result in the termination of a pregnancy. Also called induced abortion.
Abortion | Define Abortion at Dictionary.com
1.Also called voluntary abortion. the removal of an embryo or fetus from the uterus in order to end a pregnancy.
2.any of various surgical methods for terminating a pregnancy, especially during the first six months.

Medical
abortion - definition of abortion in the Medical dictionary - by the Free Online Medical Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.
1. expulsion from the uterus of the products of conception before the fetus is viable.
2. premature stoppage of a natural or a pathological process.
2. Any of various procedures that result in such a termination of pregnancy.
Abortion definition - Medical Dictionary definitions of popular medical terms easily defined on MedTerms
Abortion: In medicine, an abortion is the premature exit of the products of conception (the fetus, fetal membranes, and placenta) from the uterus. It is the loss of a pregnancy and does not refer to why that pregnancy was lost.
Abortion -- Medical Definition
Definitions:
1. Expulsion from the uterus of an embryo or fetus before viability (20 weeks' gestation [18 weeks after fertilization] or fetal weight less than 500 g). A distinction made between abortion and premature birth is that premature infants are those born after the stage of viability but before 37 weeks' gestation. Abortion may be either spontaneous (occurring from natural causes) or induced (artificially or therapeutically).
2. The arrest of any action or process before its normal completion.
Abortion: MedlinePlus
An abortion is a procedure to end a pregnancy. It uses medicine or surgery to remove the embryo or fetus and placenta from the uterus. The procedure is done by a licensed health care professional.

definition of an abortion preformed on a fetus already dead
Dilation and evacuation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Dilation and evacuation (also sometimes called dilation and extraction) literally refers to the dilation of the cervix and surgical evacuation of the contents of the uterus. It is a method of abortion as well as a therapeutic procedure used after miscarriage to prevent infection by ensuring that the uterus is fully evacuated.[1][2]

In various health care centers it may be called by different names:

D&E (Dilation and evacuation)
ERPOC (Evacuation of Retained Products of Conception)
TOP or STOP ((Surgical) Termination Of Pregnancy)


5.) false, by the medical definition the abortion is 100% successful because the PREGNANCY was terminated.

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Republic Now! said:

1.)Zygotes are not aborted.
2.)ZEF is a dehumanizing term that is also technically inaccurate.



Let's take a look then.



2.)Fair enough, though we all know what's implied by "abortion." Some definitions seem to dodge the issue, however.

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Josie said:

Do you think there are more Kermit Gosnells in this country? (If you don't know the story, you need to know...)

Abortion Doctor Trial: Coverage of Kermit Gosnell Case Sparks Debate

If so, what should be done about this?

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AGENT J said:

that would have to be happening first and has nothing to do with the OP

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DVSentinel said:

Are you sure you're in the thread you think you are?

The article quoted in the op clearly refers to an Abortion (legalized and organized murder of children) doctor (who apparently forgot the motto "first do no harm", since he made his living murdering children) who killed a woman and some children trying to perform late term abortions.

So clearly it is happening and clearly it very much has to do with this thread.

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AGENT J said:

yep, im positive,

sorry you are wrong if he is found guilty of murder which is NEVER legal, theres no such thing by definition then he goes to jail and rightfully so

so clearly its not happening cause thers no such thing and making it up doesnt change the fact its not happening

if what he did was legal he wouldn't be going to trial, so like i said

that would have to be happening first. it wasnt :shrug:

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DVSentinel said:

1.)Obviously, our opinions differ. An opinion you can have because your mother didn't make the choice to have you murdered before you were born. Just as obvious, no amount of argument however logical or reasonable is going to change your mind. You will cling to your "legal" definition and I will continue to support the scientifically provable and moral definition.

2.)Only in the case where the mothers life is threatened is there any moral justification for abortion, the murder of unborn children.
3.) In cases other than rape, there is no reason for a woman to get pregnant if she doesn't want to.
4.)If you do the act, then you accept the consequences of your actions. It is not like there are not other options available.
5.)There are two that have zero risk of pregnancy, all others involve at least some risk, take your chances and accept the outcome.

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AGENT J said:

LMAO do you live in America?


1.)ahhh see theres the confusion. You think this is an opinion discussion. Its not.
obviously you are stating an OPINION and i stated a FACT as far as "legal murder" is concerned.
You are right no "argument" you present will convince me to ignore FACTS because im not uneducated enough to do so. None you supply will be logical or reasonable because facts will trump them..

There is no such thing as a scientific definition or moral definition of murder nor is one "provable" LMAO
if you disagree please factually prove the scientific definition of murder, then prove the factually moral definition of murder ( a LEGAL term):lamo

Fact is there is no such thing as legal murder :shrug: opinion have zero impact on this.

2.) more OPINION since many people feel obligated by the morals to about and we already covered the fact that abortion is factually not murder :shrug: Why is your opinoin more important than others and why should your opinion be forced on others?

3.) factually false

4.) consent to sex is factually not consent to giving birth, never will be and never has been, ever lol

5.) see number 4, they do accept it, accept the fact abortions exists :shrug:

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DVSentinel said:

1.)Just like consenting to sticking your hand in a fire is not consenting to be burned. Ok, have it your way.

2.)Yes, abortion exists, at least for now, but there is always hope for innocents in the future.

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SmokeAndMirrors said:

A baby, as a self-sufficient, detached organism, has every right.

A ZEF feeding off someone else's livelihood? No.

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Bob Blaylock said:

I've never heard of a baby being self-sufficient. In fact, in our society, a human being isn't expected to be self-sufficient until the age of eighteen, at least. Up to that age, his parents are responsible for his needs; and he does indeed live by—to use your words—“feeding off someone else's livelihood”. Is it OK, then, to “abort” a seventeen-year-old?

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AGENT J said:

thats what i thought you got nothing honest, logical or even true and rational to add

1.) LMAO 100% false your example is in no way like consenting to sex, its illogical and not a parallel in any reality based way what so ever.
fact remains, consenting to sex is not consenting to giving birth.

if you disagree PLEASE feel free to provide to factually prove otherwise. Id love to read it.

2.) abortion does exist and if it was banned tomorrow guess what, nothing would be fixed, banning abortions would just infringe on rights of the woman :shrug:

weird, why didnt you give me and factually provable evidence of scientific and moral murder?????

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DVSentinel said:

1.)Probably because I have posted that argument before, debating with you in fact, if I remember correctly. But then maybe it was someone else.

2.)So, the rights of the woman trump the rights of her child? When does the child "receive" it's right to life?

3.)Ok, here we go again.

Upon conception, the egg is fertilized by the sperm and then it splits.

Are the cells after the split alive -- Yes, scientifically provable, the take in oxygen and give off carbon dioxide (proving living animal not living plant), yes. Do they take in nutrients and give off waste products, yes. Do they reproduce, yes. This is proof of life necessary and beyond to identify live cells from dead ones.

Are the cells "part" of the mother -- No, again scientifically provable, see DNA next.
Do the cells contain the DNA of a unique individual, different from all other individual humans -- Yes, scientifically provable, science can even identify the sex of the individual the cells belong to. DNA testing would show a unique, provable pattern that can be used to verify a individuals identity, even in legal cases.
Are the cells the result of cancer or other disease-- No, scientifically provable.

So, the cells are:
- Normal human cells
- Alive
- Identifiable genetically as a unique human individual
- If all cells in an individuals body die or are killed, that individual is dead.

Conclusion, those cells, even if only two of them, are scientifically verifiable as a unique living human, an individual. If a unique living human is killed by the actions of a person(s), that act is often called "murder" when no legal or moral justification, such as self defense/defense of others, is present.

Not killing another person without just cause is an accepted moral prerogative in all human societies. Definition of "just cause" is often different, but not the moral acceptance of "thou shall not kill".

A person, at least an adult one, is always responsible for their own actions. All actions, performed voluntarily can be said to be consented to by the individual performing them. Any person, performing any act, including sex, accepts the risks involved and therefore accepts the outcome of the action, whether desirable or not. If someone does not want to accept a possible outcome, then they can choose to not do the act. If the consent to the act, then they consent to the outcome. This applies to all actions done by human beings, whether it is sticking a hand in a fire or having sex or driving drunk. It either applies to all actions or none.

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AGENT J said:

1.) its not an argument thats what you dont get, well, actually it is an argument but its a 100% proven failed argument
2.) currently, legally YES they factually do

IMO, they should SOMETIMES and the ZEF's rights should trump the womans SOMETIMES

being all or mostly pro-life or Pro-choice is mostly one sided, id like it to be a better mix

3.) LMAO thanks for proving you are clueless about this topic and continuing to lie.
you said it was scientifically and morally provable that its MURDER

your ranting about the ZEF being alive which i agree with 100% since that is a fact, or your OPINION about society, or whats unjust and your morals is meaningless to the word MURDER and FACTS.

you fail once again simply because you are dishonest and do not understand what words mean.

all you have demonstrated is that sometimes during or right after an abortion a ZEF which is living dies.

soooo after all this meaningless, double talk and opinion you stated we are still at the beginning, so i will ask you again.

Please present us with FACTUAL evidence that abortion is scientifically and moral MURDER.

this time focus on the word FACTUAL and understand that word is very different from opinion. I cant wait to see what you type next.

also after your long meaningless rant, the fact remains that consenting to sex is not consent to give birth.
so lets move on to your nonsensical explanation of consent.

by your broken logic this would mean that anytime somebody walks down an alley or goes through a bad neighborhood or a woman wears a short skirt or hell when they leave the house they are consenting to being mugged, raped, killed, car jacked etc etc and should accepts the risks involved and therefore accept the outcome of the action, whether desirable or not. They should be barred from taking any further action. LMAO that is beyond stupid, illogical and as already been proven factually wrong.

SO again your opinion has changed nothing.
Please FACTUALLY prove that consent to sex is consent to giving birth. Same rules apply, Focus on the word FACTUALLY.

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DVSentinel said:

Lets start with Murder. Murder | Define Murder at Dictionary.com

5. to kill or slaughter inhumanly or barbarously.

Synonym Study
4. See kill1 .


syn·o·nym
[sin-uh-nim] Show IPA
noun
1.
a word having the same or nearly the same meaning as another in the language, as happy, joyful, elated. A dictionary of synonyms and antonyms (or opposites), such as Thesaurus.com, is called a thesaurus.
2.
a word or expression accepted as another name for something, as Arcadia for pastoral simplicity or Wall Street for U.S. financial markets; metonym.
3.
Biology . one of two or more scientific names applied to a single taxon.

So according to the dictionary, at least the one provided, Kill is a synonym for murder and a synonym can be a word with the same meaning and can be used interchangeably. So murder can be used in place of kill depending on the connotation that the author wishes to express. Apparently you wish to only recognize the legal definition not all definitions, however all definitions and definitions of synonyms do apply.

To avoid overly long posts, I will stick with this one aspect and move to others in other posts.

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AGENT J said:

LMAO :lamo

thanks for again proving my point, you REALLY dont understand the difference between FACTS and OPINION, objective and subjective do you?

even by dishonestly skipping the LAW definitions which this WHOLE debate as been about and i referred to MANY times you still fail and prove me right and you wrong LMAO
but ill play your dishonest game anyway because its still a loser for you

WHy are you still obviously and factually wrong?

easy because you are still trying to sell your OPINION as fact and it cause you to fail.

see definition 5 that you so conveniently quoted for me and i think you for it. What does it say again?

5. to kill or slaughter inhumanly or barbarously.

see those two underlined words?

those are subjective and opinion words.

many feel and have the opinion that their abortions are the moral and human thing to do, so no what? prove them wrong.


again thanks for stating your OPINION but facts disagree

so you fail again and so did your dishonest attempt move the goal posts away from law and to use a synonym LMAO

thanks for playing what else do you have?

also AGAIN you DODGED my questions to you, did you think id let it slide?

Please FACTUALLY prove that consent to sex is consent to giving birth.
Please present us with FACTUAL evidence that abortion is scientifically and moral MURDER.

Same rules apply, Focus on the words FACTUAL(LY).

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DVSentinel said:

To the bottom part of your post, as I said previously, I will get to that. Once other things are cleared up.

As to your statement that anything but the legal definition is not fact, but opinion, if that were true, then there would not be other definitions, also, a legal definition is only the majority opinion of law makers and is, as you would put, no more fact than any of the other definitions. Either all definitions are factual or none are.

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AGENT J said:

opcorn2:

sorry i didnt say that, what i said is that i have been referring to the legal terminology continuously for pages

also NO all definitions are not factual when using subjective words to define them, this is basic common sense.
the law definition is defined by LAW period. That is a factual definition.
your definition is defined by subjective words which makes it NOT FACTUAL because your definition is based on OPINION and not FACT.

an example of this would be UGLY.
you may have an opinion that something is UGLY and in your OPINION that fits the definition but its not FACTUAL as others may disagree.

nice spin but its another complete failure



things are as clear as they are going to be because facts support them

abortion is not factually murder
consent to sex is not consent to giving birth

let me know when you can factually prove otherwise, i cant wait opcorn2:

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DVSentinel said:

1.)So, just to see if I got this straight. Using Murder as a synonym for kill is not factual and nobody that was called murdered actually died unless that act of dieing meets the legal definition of murder?
2.) I am aware that you are consistently using the same definition, however, that does not limit others ability to use other definitions nor does that use of other definitions in anyway make a statement "non factual".

3.)Also, since the legal definition seems to be the only one you accept,
4.)then those who claim that Hitler and the Nazi's murdered Jews, Gypsies and Communist are wrong, because after all, it did not fit the legal definition at the time and place it occurred?
5.) Slave owners did not murder any slaves, because again, the legal definition at the time and place did not call it murder?

So, in your opinion, only those who use the definition you accept are actually being factual. Got it. Nice trick to make sure you "win" a debate, but really, how does the audience of the debate feel about that tactic?

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AGENT J said:

oh good lord more spin spin spin LMAO

1.) nope, not even close to what i said
2.) yes it does if those definitions depend on opinion and subjective terms and one is claiming it is factual
3.) false again and not true, please refrain from making stuff up
4.) this has been tried before and fails huge every time

no they are not "wrong" unless they say it was factually murder, they are free to have that OPINION but if they say it was FACTUALLY murder then they would be wrong depending on the content of their statement
also nazis may have factually murder some people that would be a case by case bases

5.) again i dont know, they may have according to facts at the time, but in general they killed slaves, murder would be an opnion and nothing more unless you have an actual case you are referring to that you would like to discuss.

6.) nope wrong again, but please continue to lie and make stuff up it only exposes you further lol
id bet the audience feels great about it if they can read because so fare all you have posted is your opinion and lies about what i actually believe or side

oy yeah i almost forgot with all your deflections

things are as clear as they are going to be because facts support them

abortion is not factually murder
consent to sex is not consent to giving birth

let me know when you can factually prove otherwise, i cant wait opcorn2:

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DVSentinel said:

Murder is factually a synonym for killing.

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DVSentinel said:

1.)Abortion is factually killing.
2.)Murder is factually a synonym for killing. Therefore, Abortion is factually murder. Except to those who narrow their perspective on "factual" to a very narrow definition that supports only their arguments and point of view.

3.)I never said the consented to giving birth, I said they consented to getting pregnant.

4.) Live birth can only be if the pregnancy is carried to term.

5.)Besides murder for hire (abortion) there are many other things that can cause a pregnancy to not end with a live birth.

6.) And yes, they are consenting to pregnancy.

7.)As to your other examples, yes, they were being stupid and therefore consented to what happened to them.

8.)In the "rape" scenario you gave, I am apparently not the only person who considers it to be factual, since the laws had to be changed to get rape convictions because juries were looking at the woman and saying "she asked for it". Would it prevent me from handing down a conviction on a jury, no, but

9.) I would certainly give a much lighter sentence to a man who raped a slut dressed like a whore than to one who raped a decent woman dressed properly. If you advertise in public, then don't think you can discriminate between customers. If your intent is a private "sell", then keep it private. Having your tits and ass hanging out and barely covered and acting like a wanton slut is advertising and some people clearly believe you don't advertise what your not selling.

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DVSentinel said:

I would certainly give a much lighter sentence to a man (RAPIST)who raped a slut (woman, human being) dressed like a whore than to one who raped a decent woman dressed properly. If you advertise in public, then don't think you can discriminate between customers. (Customers???????)If your intent is a private "sell", then keep it private. Having your tits and ass hanging out and barely covered and acting like a wanton slut is advertising and some people clearly believe you don't advertise what your not selling.

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Republic Now! said:

Well, if we're being technical, the term "ZEF" is somewhat disingenuous since the zygote phase lasts less than a week, and most women do not even realize pregnancy by that point, much less abort.



No, the aborted does not survive the act. The doctor induced pregnancy before killing them, instead of killing them in the womb which is what usually occurs with earlier term abortions.

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