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  • Yes, there probably are more abortion doctors like Gosnell

    24 80.00%
  • No, Gosnell is an anomaly

    6 20.00%
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Thread: "The House of Horrors" Gosnell case

  1. #71
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    Re: "The House of Horrors" Gosnell case

    Quote Originally Posted by Gina View Post
    Here?

    There are state agencies in Pennsylvania that are supposed to have inspectors charged with examining conditions in clinics like Gosnell's. The filth alone would have closed him down, without touching privacy, though I understand he taught ultra scan technicians how to cheat the angle so that the fetus was measured by the machine as smaller than it was. He was compelled by law to back up his records, so to me, that speaks to him expecting some agency would be looking into his practices. If there were no inspectors or departments examining is records, why even do that much? I guess I'm saying I'm skeptical that inspectors don't exist, but I agree, there was a multiple agency failure to close Gosnells down.
    Perhaps PA does mandate special inspectors for abortion clinics. Generally speaking from my experience out West the clinics are given a great deal of latitude in recordkeeping, and it is terribly easy to falsify them as the inspectors cannot interview the patients, they cannot even know who they are.

    Cleanliness can be solved for the inspection period and AFAIK inspections are scheduled so as not to interfere with patient privacy.

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    Re: "The House of Horrors" Gosnell case

    Quote Originally Posted by clownboy View Post
    Perhaps PA does mandate special inspectors for abortion clinics. Generally speaking from my experience out West the clinics are given a great deal of latitude in recordkeeping, and it is terribly easy to falsify them as the inspectors cannot interview the patients, they cannot even know who they are.

    Cleanliness can be solved for the inspection period and AFAIK inspections are scheduled so as not to interfere with patient privacy.
    From articles that I've read on this case, there are multiple agencies requiring inspection of conditions and records of Pennsylvania's clinics. There are records dating back to the 80's reporting violations in Gosnell's clinic.

    If inspectors are not doing their jobs or if a state lacks inspectors, forcing them to do their jobs or getting inspectors in there, would seem to me to be the answer here, not restricting abortion. Patient privacy should be respected, but there are ways to do that and protect patients from monsters like Gosnell.
    I don't attack my constituents. Bob is my constituent now.
    This is the important stuff. We canít get lost in discrimination. We canít get lost in B.S. We canít get lost tearing each other down. I want to make a point here that no matter what you look like, where you come from, how you worship, who you love, how you identify, and yeah, how you run, that if you have good public policy ideas, if you are well qualified for office, bring those ideas to the table, because this is your America, too. This is our commonwealth of Virginia, too.
    Danica Roem - The nation's first openly transgender person elected to serve in a U.S. state legislature.

  3. #73
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    Re: "The House of Horrors" Gosnell case

    Quote Originally Posted by JayDubya View Post
    I had you pegged right: utterly shameless. You accused me of lying, appropriate of nothing; when noting the reality that there are, in fact, posters here who do not believe in birth personhood, which is all I had stated, you doubled down because of course, you couldn't be wrong.
    Well, when you skew definitions to try to demonize your opponent in a blunt attempt to control the debate, your credibility is going to be the first thing to go. So long as you continue to do that you're just going to have to expect anyone you're talking with to confirm your claims with somebody else. If you don't like it, change your behavior.

    As a final aside, pro-abortion and anti-abortion are simple, accurate terms. I assume most people like life and choice as general, nebulous concepts, very few hold the consistent life ethic, and fewer still are anarchists opposed to the very idea of laws banning violence. So I will continue to use accurate terms, thanks.
    Anti-abortion is certainly accurate enough, but not pro-abortion because it assumes that everyone who is pro-choice automatically advocates abortion. The grammatically correct term would be pro-abortion-rights.

  4. #74
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    Re: "The House of Horrors" Gosnell case

    Quote Originally Posted by Gina View Post
    From articles that I've read on this case, there are multiple agencies requiring inspection of conditions and records of Pennsylvania's clinics. There are records dating back to the 80's reporting violations in Gosnell's clinic.

    If inspectors are not doing their jobs or if a state lacks inspectors, forcing them to do their jobs or getting inspectors in there, would seem to me to be the answer here, not restricting abortion. Patient privacy should be respected, but there are ways to do that and protect patients from monsters like Gosnell.
    Agreed. However, wherever late term abortions are allowed there will always be these sort of problems and they will go uncovered for long periods of time. Partial birth abortion - is it allowed by law still in PA?

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    Re: "The House of Horrors" Gosnell case

    Quote Originally Posted by clownboy View Post
    Agreed. However, wherever late term abortions are allowed there will always be these sort of problems and they will go uncovered for long periods of time. Partial birth abortion - is it allowed by law still in PA?
    I cannot agree that wherever late-term abortions are permitted there will always be these sorts of problems. Dr. Tiller was never accused of this kind of egregious violation and I have to believe he was vigorously inspected.
    Pennsylvania law bars abortions after 24 weeks’ gestation, at which point a fetus is considered to be likely viable outside the womb. Gosnell performed multiple abortions at 24.5 weeks, and the grand jury report found that many of those procedures underestimated the period of gestation. One Gosnell employee estimated that about 40 percent of the clinic’s abortions occurred after 24 weeks. Gosnell, the grand jury found, killed the babies born alive in his clinic.
    There were also multiple complaints by other doctors who believe their patients were infected with STD's at Gosnell's clinic. He was suspected of bad medical practice and the authorities receiving the complaints, obviously did nothing. New laws were passed and went into effect in 2011. Inspections are now taking place and five more clinics are closed, though it's not clear why.

    Pennsylvania Tightens Abortion Rules Following Clinic Deaths : NPR
    I don't attack my constituents. Bob is my constituent now.
    This is the important stuff. We canít get lost in discrimination. We canít get lost in B.S. We canít get lost tearing each other down. I want to make a point here that no matter what you look like, where you come from, how you worship, who you love, how you identify, and yeah, how you run, that if you have good public policy ideas, if you are well qualified for office, bring those ideas to the table, because this is your America, too. This is our commonwealth of Virginia, too.
    Danica Roem - The nation's first openly transgender person elected to serve in a U.S. state legislature.

  6. #76
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    Re: "The House of Horrors" Gosnell case

    Quote Originally Posted by Gina View Post
    I cannot agree that wherever late-term abortions are permitted there will always be these sorts of problems. Dr. Tiller was never accused of this kind of egregious violation and I have to believe he was vigorously inspected.
    No, Tiller just allowed the babies to crown and then shoved foreceps through their skulls, waited until the death tremors ceased and then pieced the child - certainly nothing heinous there. And there is no "vigorous" inspection. I'm sure his cleanliness practice was inspected, but inspections as to procedure are blocked and easy to get around where not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gina View Post
    There were also multiple complaints by other doctors who believe their patients were infected with STD's at Gosnell's clinic. He was suspected of bad medical practice and the authorities receiving the complaints, obviously did nothing. New laws were passed and went into effect in 2011. Inspections are now taking place and five more clinics are closed, though it's not clear why.

    Pennsylvania Tightens Abortion Rules Following Clinic Deaths : NPR
    That's good to hear. However, you must see that it took outrageous behavior to get this notice. The wheel had to be extra squeeky to get the grease. Had he been just a little better about cleanliness, he'd still be going at it.

  7. #77
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    Re: "The House of Horrors" Gosnell case

    According to the pro-choice crowd, this would be one of their worst fears if abortion were made illegal...essentially a back alley abortionist.

  8. #78
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    Re: "The House of Horrors" Gosnell case

    Quote Originally Posted by clownboy View Post
    No, Tiller just allowed the babies to crown and then shoved foreceps through their skulls, waited until the death tremors ceased and then pieced the child - certainly nothing heinous there. And there is no "vigorous" inspection. I'm sure his cleanliness practice was inspected, but inspections as to procedure are blocked and easy to get around where not.



    That's good to hear. However, you must see that it took outrageous behavior to get this notice. The wheel had to be extra squeeky to get the grease. Had he been just a little better about cleanliness, he'd still be going at it.
    Partial-birth abortion was banned, which then necessitates the more brutal procedure of dismembering.

    How do you know there is no vigorous inspection? He was under constant scrutiny and harassment for performing a legal medical procedure.


    Jury: Tiller Not Guilty On All Counts

    Jurors found Wichita abortion doctor George Tiller not guilty on all 19 counts after deliberating for just over an hour.
    Tiller was on trial on 19 misdemeanor charges stemming from some abortions he performed at his Wichita clinic in 2003. He is accused of breaking a state law requiring that two Kansas physicians without legal or financial ties sign off on any late-term procedure.

    Dr. Ann Kristin Neuhaus provided second opinions on late-term abortions before Tiller performed them. Prosecutors contend they had an illegal financial affiliation.

    In closing arguments Friday, prosecutors pointed to Tiller's journal about a 1999 conversation between the doctors over Neuhaus' fee as the "smoking gun" in their case.

    But the defense said Tiller was trying to comply with the law and relied on the suggestion of a state official when he contacted Neuhaus.
    He was found out because:

    Authorities began investigating the clinic over suspicions of illegal drug prescription activity. A detective with the district attorneyís office then became aware of Karnamaya Mongarís death.
    As I said, there was a multiple agency failure to do their jobs as well as other authorities not pursuing complaints.
    I don't attack my constituents. Bob is my constituent now.
    This is the important stuff. We canít get lost in discrimination. We canít get lost in B.S. We canít get lost tearing each other down. I want to make a point here that no matter what you look like, where you come from, how you worship, who you love, how you identify, and yeah, how you run, that if you have good public policy ideas, if you are well qualified for office, bring those ideas to the table, because this is your America, too. This is our commonwealth of Virginia, too.
    Danica Roem - The nation's first openly transgender person elected to serve in a U.S. state legislature.

  9. #79
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    Re: "The House of Horrors" Gosnell case

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    Perhaps this has been addressed already, but I don't understand why this debate is about abortion.
    Because this is about an abortion doctor whose office wasn't "underground" and yet wasn't inspected for years.


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    Re: "The House of Horrors" Gosnell case

    Quote Originally Posted by pbrauer View Post
    "Pennsylvania, like other states, permits legal abortion within a regulatory framework. Physicians must, for example, provide counseling about the nature of the procedure. Minors must have parental or judicial consent. All women must wait 24 hours after first visiting the facility, in order to fully consider their decision. But Gosnell's compliance with such requirements was casual at best. At the Women's Medical Society, the only question that really mattered was whether you had the cash. Too young? No problem. Didn't want to wait? Gosnell provided same-day service".
    Uh, maybe I am missing something here, but seemingly didn't address her question. You merely listed a bunch of regulations

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