View Poll Results: How would it affect your vote if the republican party did not oppose SSM?

Voters
36. You may not vote on this poll
  • I would not vote republican if they did not support a ban on SSM

    3 8.33%
  • I would be less likely to vote republican

    3 8.33%
  • I would be more likely to vote republican

    8 22.22%
  • It would have no effect on my vote

    15 41.67%
  • Other, don't know

    7 19.44%
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Thread: For Republicans/Conservatives: Party Support and SSM

  1. #61
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    Re: For Republicans/Conservatives: Party Support and SSM

    Quote Originally Posted by ChezC3 View Post
    Where would you suggest the line of distinction be drawn between moral principle and religious doctrine?
    The line should be drawn, in my view, when your only rationale for your position is based on the teachings of some church.

  2. #62
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    Re: For Republicans/Conservatives: Party Support and SSM

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    Sticking the government nose in the private lives of citizens is not a "conservative" principle and Republicans would be well advised to distance themselves from the branch of the party that insists on dragging religious doctrine into the public square.
    This is a false (but widespread) description of social conservatism.

    It may cost them some elections in the short term, but I'd be willing to bet that the Republican brand would be more attractive to more people if it spent all it's time on fiscal issues, the economy, and the financial health of the country.
    Like the libertarians? How well do they do on the national scene?



    You can't have small government unless you have strong social institutions. Fiscal conservatism without social conservatism is like planning to hike Mount Kilimanjaro without planning on first traveling to Tanzania. You can't get there from here.

  3. #63
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    Re: For Republicans/Conservatives: Party Support and SSM

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    The line should be drawn, in my view, when your only rationale for your position is based on the teachings of some church.
    As a simple matter of should, that is fine. That would invalidate not a single major social conservative policy proscription.

    However, faith teaches us truths about humanity. Are you suggesting that people should not craft policy in line with what we know of how humanity functions?

  4. #64
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    Re: For Republicans/Conservatives: Party Support and SSM

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    This is a false (but widespread) description of social conservatism.



    Like the libertarians? How well do they do on the national scene?



    You can't have small government unless you have strong social institutions. Fiscal conservatism without social conservatism is like planning to hike Mount Kilimanjaro without planning on first traveling to Tanzania. You can't get there from here.
    Social conservatism need not be doctinaire and strong social institutions do not and should not rely on government for their existence.

  5. #65
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    Re: For Republicans/Conservatives: Party Support and SSM

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    As a simple matter of should, that is fine. That would invalidate not a single major social conservative policy proscription.

    However, faith teaches us truths about humanity. Are you suggesting that people should not craft policy in line with what we know of how humanity functions?
    Not at all - but attempts at inserting literal interpretations of the bible as bases for government policies is not the same.

  6. #66
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    Re: For Republicans/Conservatives: Party Support and SSM

    Quote Originally Posted by ChezC3 View Post
    Seperating the curd from the whey won't prevent the milk from turning sour.
    A bird in the hand is worth two in your sleeve and each are convertible into 5 card tricks.



    [quote]I have not but reading a review I put the suggestion on my list, thanks for the recommendation.[/quote[



    ha! No, but taking away the guns of law abiding citizens is a good way to help that redistribution, ain't it?
    True enough, except that our higher income folks tend to be less likely to invest in personal protection. Gun ownership is disproportionately among the lower income - which might tie a little into a conversation below.

    Then what we are getting into here is a matter of semantics. As you've portrayed them, social conservatives seem more like proponants of that anarchy you had previously mentioned which would be our undoing.
    No. I am saying that social conservatives are best suited to survive and adapt to it. It is those who are most dependent upon the state for their sustenance who can least survive loss of the state as a provider.

    I'm not talkng the silly, childish, Battle in Seattle miscreants who have an unwavering disgust for storefront windows, I'm talking of the mature, self-controlled,self governed type who realisticly understand that government isn't going anywhere so to make due they'll take government at its most local form.
    well that is, broadly, very socially conservative of you.

    Oh, that old line of conservative thinking... Let my good friend George Orwell explain my position;
    Firstly, this was not what I was referencing. Third Way folks are typically rejecting Socialism and Capitalism in favor of Corporatism.

    Secondly, Orwell was dead wrong on this. There is good reason to worry about the mob, which is why our founders were so rightly suspicious of them. Democracy does not equal Liberal (in its' classic sense) government, and the mob will feel completely justified in stripping away your rights. Mobs are highly emotional things, prone to follow extremist demagogues in perpetuating crimes that no single member of it ever would, given the light of day and time to contemplate his action - but the safety, the security, the ability to corporatise blame that we find in the mob - ah - that allows him to undertake all manner of evil.

    This can be read literal as well as allegorical.

    Fear of the mob is a superstitious fear.
    No. Fear of the mob is based on an appreciation of the human psyche and human history.

    Oh, but then you forget what you've stated earlier -- they won't get to preach what they practice. They'll turn-out...and vote in predictable fashion...
    You are conflating two only mildly overlapping groups. Again, I would urge you to pick up Murray. Fascinating, paradoxical creatures, humans.

  7. #67
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    Re: For Republicans/Conservatives: Party Support and SSM

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    Not at all - but attempts at inserting literal interpretations of the bible as bases for government policies is not the same.
    You are drawing a distinction where none exists.

  8. #68
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    Re: For Republicans/Conservatives: Party Support and SSM

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    You are drawing a distinction where none exists.
    Do you dispute that the religious right does just that?

  9. #69
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    Re: For Republicans/Conservatives: Party Support and SSM

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    The line should be drawn, in my view, when your only rationale for your position is based on the teachings of some church.
    Well, the teachings of some church or "Because God said so"? There is a difference. Many a church teaching can be argued from a point where it isn't a matter of "Cause God said so"

    Scientific, philosophical, sociological, psychological, many many rationales, but it might just be from the church, or should I say The Church, where those teachings are espoused.

    That is why I am asking for further clarification, not just trying to play word games.

  10. #70
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    Re: For Republicans/Conservatives: Party Support and SSM

    Quote Originally Posted by ChezC3 View Post
    Well, the teachings of some church or "Because God said so"? There is a difference. Many a church teaching can be argued from a point where it isn't a matter of "Cause God said so"

    Scientific, philosophical, sociological, psychological, many many rationales, but it might just be from the church, or should I say The Church, where those teachings are espoused.

    That is why I am asking for further clarification, not just trying to play word games.
    No problem, I didn't think you were playing games - in my view, much of what western civilization is based on comes from the common sense morality of religious teachings but those need not be strictly adhered to based on ancient or outdated teachings but must be adjusted to the wealth of newly acquired knowledge and the circumstances of today's society and its many factions. It is why I believe government serves best the further it keeps from the daily lives of its citizens.

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