View Poll Results: What would you expect a woman to do in this situation?

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  • Get a description, stay calm, dont make sudden movements, call the cops later..

    4 12.90%
  • Throw herself at the gunman and fight for her loved ones, because not doing so would be cowardice.

    5 16.13%
  • Other, explain.

    22 70.97%
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Thread: What would you expect a woman to do?

  1. #111
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    Re: What would you expect a woman to do?

    Egads... I'm going to try my best with this, but you did quite a hack job with the quotes and it's hard to follow you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Capster78 View Post
    Well, I can't say that I went out and did all the research myself, bud did you go out and do all your reasearch yourself or did you provide us with links? Talk about calling the kettle black.
    Yes, I did most of it myself, because I've debated people like you before.

    But even if I hadn't so what? Those organizations objectively exist, don't they?

    Does it matter. Do you not think men have the right to speak up about things they are not happy about? Or are they just a bunch of screaming heads. I think by the above comment I can already conclude that the only concerns that matter are the concerns of women. Men are just screaming heads. Without even knowing it, you have already proven my point by making the above comment.
    Of course they do. I've spent quite a lot of time doing it myself, as a feminist. Feminism should be imminently concerned with the ever-changing metrics of power between the genders.

    But what you're doing is not "expressing a concern." You are making baseless assertions using no real information.

    I didn't say men are screaming heads. I said the kind of MRA douchebags you're getting your information from are screaming heads. Some MRA's are women.

    There's a difference between a man and an MRA. Not all rectangles are squares, and all that.

    nearly 2 percent of coal miners are women.
    And if you had done some research on some of the egregious sexual offenses female miners have faced, you would know why.

    That is why women's miners advocacy groups exist. They want to encourage women into the field by reducing the likelihood that they will be treated badly.

    I dont see any deconstruction, just facades...
    So proving your wrong a dozen times over with the objective existence of the organizations you said don't exist is a facade? Ok, then.

    I understand exactly what feminism is... Modern feminism has turned against all its founding principles. It started out as a fight for equality. Once it went from fighting for equality, to fighting for the interest of women alone, it was no longer fighting for equality. It is fighting for womens interestes, like a company would fight for its interests by lobying congress. And in business, there is no such thing as equality.
    Obviously not. I'm a feminist. A lot of men here are feminists. A lot of us spend a lot of time talking about some of the inequalities that exist on the side of men.

    But here's the thing: the majority of those inequalities are caused by patriarchy. See my first post to you about "women and children first" being a principle of patriarchy, due to the idea that women are helpless and stupid. This has the affect of devaluing the lives of men.

    I won't deny there are some women who are reluctant to give up some privileges patriarchy affords them. But most of these women are "conservative" and don't consider themselves feminists.

    There are feminists who are reluctant as well, and they are hypocrites. You won't get any argument from me about that.

    No, when women speak up they are patted on the back.

    When men speak up, they are belittled and heckled. You can see this in the media every day. When a man makes a controversial comment, right or wrong, he is raked over the coals in the media.

    When a woman makes a controversial statment about a man, she is applauded.
    I won't debate this happens, and if you'd read my post more carefully, you'd see that I never did.

    It's the rule of trends. If you only get heckled once in a while, chances are you might be saying something society isn't ready for. And in that case, you might be right.

    But if it's happening all the time, chances are you're saying something stupid.

    We do see examples of women getting away with violent rhetoric against men, yes, that's true. I, for one, make a point of calling that out consistently, as do many other feminists of either sex.

    But when a man gets heckled for something like being abused or a survivor of rape, who is heckling him? Overwhelmingly, it's other men.

    So you don't believe it ever happens?
    See above.

    We will see.. now that combat roles are opened up for women.. we will see if the percentage improves. However, right now women make up about 20% of the military. Most of which serve in the Navy and Air force. And in both services... the standards for a woman to qualify are much lower than for a male.
    Ok. So whose fault is it that the standards are what they are? Not the woman's.

    I am not saying whether the standards should be higher or lower, but you can't say women are "unwilling" when the standards are such that they often don't qualify.

    And only 3 percent of women work in construction.... hmmm...
    Yup. See my point about female coal miners.

    And women make up about 4% of all pilots........
    Mm-hmm. As I understand it, there might actually be a perceptual reason for this. Women tend to be good spacial organizers and night seers (which is why they make fantastic spies), but men tend to have the advantage with depth perception (which is why they make up the majority of pilots).

    You did not debunk anything I said. In fact you did me a service and provided many organizations that are out there to more than support women who want to get into these professions but women make up less than 5% of these professions.
    You said women don't fight for these things. I proved you wrong beyond any shadow of doubt.

    And if you'd read a bit about this, you would see why women are less prevalent in these fields, and it's not necessarily because they don't want to participate. It's because of the way men treat them, in most cases.

    Yet... women get 1000% more funding for cancer than men do... hmmm.. seems like women are picking and choosing to me...
    Actually, it's that men tend to not go to the doctor. It's another one of those patriarchal "men don't need help" things.

    I know a couple of therapists who tell me that they always take male depression patients a lot more seriously, because men won't come in for help until they're 2 seconds away from killing themselves. Women tend to come in much sooner, before a crisis point has been reached.

    In fact, the problem of men refusing to see a doctor is so bad that women have to advocate FOR THEM.

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    This is incredibly unfortunate. We basically emotionally beat boys until they are unable to admit any sign of weakness.

    But if you want to find the source of that, feminism isn't it. After all, in traditionalist families, mommies are supposed to be "the nice parent," while daddies are "the bad cop."

    In summary, what you've done here is two things, both of which are fallacious on their face.

    1. Taken a fringe of feminism and applied it to hundreds of millions of male and female feminists worldwide.

    2. Misattributed the source of the problems to feminism when, in fact, the majority of them come from left-overs of patriarchy interacting with modern society.
    Last edited by SmokeAndMirrors; 04-13-13 at 11:35 PM.

  2. #112
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    Re: What would you expect a woman to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    Egads... I'm going to try my best with this, but you did quite a hack job with the quotes and it's hard to follow you.



    Yes, I did most of it myself, because I've debated people like you before.
    All your sources are 2nd hand sources.. are you a socialogist or a statistics major that lead these studies. There are virtually thousands of studies on women's issues, but very very few on men's issues. I agree that men need to speak up and that is what I am advocating for. MEN YOU NEED TO SPEAK UP!!!!!!!!! That is the main problem. Most men are raised from childhood not to complain about being hurt, just to suck it up and move on. It had practical purposes maybe 400-500 or more years ago as most men were expected to be warriors. And if they were constant complainers, they would be a liability to the protection of the tribe/colony/state/country. Those days are long gone. And I think men have come a long way to change themselves to the new reality, but women have not. The majority of women still expect to be treated like women and not like equals.

    But even if I hadn't so what? Those organizations objectively exist, don't they?
    They exist, but they have no support among women obviously because they have been ineffective getting women to pull their weight in these fields. The reason is, as i have said many times, most women want to be privy to all the booty without concequence or risk. Which is why most career fields that keep the foundations of our country solid are populated by men by a VAST VAST majority.

    Of course they do. I've spent quite a lot of time doing it myself, as a feminist. Feminism should be imminently concerned with the ever-changing metrics of power between the genders.
    When i see a feminist promoting funding and awareness for prostate cancer, I may concede partially to your point. As it stands, male prostate cancer is still a GIANT issue where as female breast cancer is widely know about.

    But what you're doing is not "expressing a concern." You are making baseless assertions using no real information.
    They are not baseless, the statistical indications are all there. You can choose to ignore them if you like. But I would hope for your fathers, your husbands and your brothers sake, you wont. I you care about them at all at least.

    I didn't say men are screaming heads. I said the kind of MRA douchebags you're getting your information from are screaming heads. Some MRA's are women.
    And the Mens Rights Movement is comprised of men with legitimate concerns. I don't understand how you can sit there and say that men don't have any legitimate concerns and women do. We all deserve a voice. And men have separate gender concerns. To throw that aside simply proves all the points I have made. Men have concerns, but society has raised them to silence them. Men and Women alike must bring these men out and tell them it is ok to voice their fears and concerns.

    There's a difference between a man and an MRA. Not all rectangles are squares, and all that.
    There are some MRA concepts I disagree with. I am not as ferverent as you might think. The way I see it, is both sexes have concerns. And both sexes deserved to be heard. So when I hear about Mens Rights Movements events being picketed by feminists, or their advertisement posters being torn down, I cringe. This is exactly what some men did at the time at the women's rights movement in the 50's and 60's. It was wrong for men to try to subdue the womens rights movements and hear their concerns, just as it is wrong for women and their male enablers to subdue the voices of men who have concerns. We wonder why men do not express themselves or go to the doctor, yet we dismiss their concerns just as you have throughout your entire post. This is a societal norm which has, over thousands of years, subdued male expression.

    And if you had done some research on some of the egregious sexual offenses female miners have faced, you would know why.
    This is certainly an area men need to work on. But I do not think this is the reason women are not flocking to these jobs. Women still dont want to do these jobs because they are dirty, labor intensive and dangerous. Again, pick and choose.

    That is why women's miners advocacy groups exist. They want to encourage women into the field by reducing the likelihood that they will be treated badly.
    Why don't they fight for both sexes being treated badly? Not just women? That is the difference between feminism and equality.



    So proving your wrong a dozen times over with the objective existence of the organizations you said don't exist is a facade? Ok, then.
    Its a facade because you tried to use that in your argument as a way to debunk what I had said. When in reality, it only proved my point even further. Agencies exist, yet women still are less then 5% of the workforce. I would be willing to bet these agencies purpose is to provide protection and rights to women, more than they promote women entering these fields. I have seen 1,000 commercials about supporting breast cancer, but no commercials encouraging women to step up to the plate and earn the equality they are demanding.



    Obviously not. I'm a feminist. A lot of men here are feminists. A lot of us spend a lot of time talking about some of the inequalities that exist on the side of men.
    Those men are misguided. Many are feminists because they are actually the furthest thing from being feminists. It is kind of like yoga. A man sees a bunch of sexy women streatching in tights, of course he is going to want to be in that group of women. He does not care if other men think he is potentially gay for doing yoga. He is just thinking of all the poon he can get by putting all these females on pedestals.

    But here's the thing: the majority of those inequalities are caused by patriarchy. See my first post to you about "women and children first" being a principle of patriarchy, due to the idea that women are helpless and stupid. This has the affect of devaluing the lives of men.
    I agree, but women are doing nothing to step up to the plate and say.. hey... we want to be a part of this as well. It is largely left to men to do all the sacrifice. Again, we will see what happens as combat roles are opened up for women. I will hold my criticism until we see what happens.

    I won't deny there are some women who are reluctant to give up some privileges patriarchy affords them. But most of these women are "conservative" and don't consider themselves feminists.
    Some.. I would say a vast majority.... But they follow the feminist thinking that they deserve all the respect without earning it. While men die fighting fires, fighting our enemies and maintaining the infrastructure we rely on to keep our country going. These roles have not changed, and they need to. Women need to step up to the plate if they ever expect to be taken seriously when it comes to equality. less than 5 percent is not going to cut it.

    It's the rule of trends. If you only get heckled once in a while, chances are you might be saying something society isn't ready for. And in that case, you might be right.
    I know I am correct. It is all over the internet......

    But if it's happening all the time, chances are you're saying something stupid.
    It does not happen every time. I find, on occasion that a woman will actually agree with me. But for the most part, women still stick to the traditional role, while expecting to be treated as equal when it suits them.

    We do see examples of women getting away with violent rhetoric against men, yes, that's true. I, for one, make a point of calling that out consistently, as do many other feminists of either sex.
    Its rampant.... You will not find a TV station that does not have a commercial where a man is bumbing and stubling around like an idiot while the woman is seen as sensible and smart. It is actually comical to both men and women that men are seen in this light. If we were to reverse roles where women are the stupid ones, the station would immediately be sent letters of discontent and protest.

    But when a man gets heckled for something like being abused or a survivor of rape, who is heckling him? Overwhelmingly, it's other men.
    sadly, it is true and something that needs to be addressed.



    See above.



    Ok. So whose fault is it that the standards are what they are? Not the woman's.
    If you see it that way, then you really are not interested in eqaulity.

    I am not saying whether the standards should be higher or lower, but you can't say women are "unwilling" when the standards are such that they often don't qualify.
    What are women in the US doing to qualify.......



    Mm-hmm. As I understand it, there might actually be a perceptual reason for this. Women tend to be good spacial organizers and night seers (which is why they make fantastic spies), but men tend to have the advantage with depth perception (which is why they make up the majority of pilots).
    The days of visual "seat by the pants" piloting are over. You don't want to argue with me here as I am actually an Aircraft Technician. A woman is just as capable in an Aircraft as a man would be.



    You said women don't fight for these things. I proved you wrong beyond any shadow of doubt.

    And if you'd read a bit about this, you would see why women are less prevalent in these fields, and it's not necessarily because they don't want to participate. It's because of the way men treat them, in most cases.
    Interesting... so if this is the case, then why have they manages to succeed in all the lucrative fields.. and not in the less lucrative fields? If this were the case, the equal rights movement would have been stopped across the board. But it seems that in the most lucrative areas, it has succeeded.



    Actually, it's that men tend to not go to the doctor. It's another one of those patriarchal "men don't need help" things.
    This is an issue as well, an issue that men need to work on. Women have done wonders for women's health. Why not raise awarness of men's health issues. Why are there few women, if any, who are not one sided.

    I know a couple of therapists who tell me that they always take male depression patients a lot more seriously, because men won't come in for help until they're 2 seconds away from killing themselves. Women tend to come in much sooner, before a crisis point has been reached.
    At least you acknowledge there is an issue. Women are currently the most influential group of people.. so why do they not care about their husbands, fathers and brothers??

    In fact, the problem of men refusing to see a doctor is so bad that women have to advocate FOR THEM.

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    I honestly have never heard of this before... Why is that? That is the problem...

    This is incredibly unfortunate. We basically emotionally beat boys until they are unable to admit any sign of weakness.
    Agree completely!!!!

    But if you want to find the source of that, feminism isn't it. After all, in traditionalist families, mommies are supposed to be "the nice parent," while daddies are "the bad cop."
    This is where the problem lies. Men are being marginalized in relationships. Which in turn, makes them less likely to commit. Which in turn, leads to more single parent families. Particularly, female run families. Which means, most males who grow up raised by women don't get the "bad cop" treatment they need. With boys, you need to set boundries and hold to them. This is where most moms fail as they are the "nice parent" who lets them off the hook. Example... if he does not finish his vegetables, he still gets the ice cream because he tried really hard.

    In summary, what you've done here is two things, both of which are fallacious on their face.

    1. Taken a fringe of feminism and applied it to hundreds of millions of male and female feminists worldwide.
    Its the fringe feminist ideals that reach the public. Which is why, as I have shown several times, men are still stuck in their traditional roles and there seems to be no social pressure for women to move out of their traditional roles.
    Last edited by Capster78; 04-14-13 at 12:56 AM.
    - There was never a good war, or a bad peace.
    - Idealistically, everything should work as you planed it to. Realistically, it depends on how idealistic you are as to the measure of success.
    - Better to be a pessimist before, and an optimist afterwords.

  3. #113
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    Re: What would you expect a woman to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    In fact, the problem of men refusing to see a doctor is so bad that women have to advocate FOR THEM.

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    We don't need you to help us. We don't want to go to the ****ing doctor! At first I was cool with women fighting causes for men, but after looking into it some more I realize it's just ****ing annoying. It's like they want to be mothers to all men. My mother is in her mid-fifties and I only have one. Stop it.

  4. #114
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    Re: What would you expect a woman to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    We don't need you to help us. We don't want to go to the ****ing doctor! At first I was cool with women fighting causes for men, but after looking into it some more I realize it's just ****ing annoying. It's like they want to be mothers to all men. My mother is in her mid-fifties and I only have one. Stop it.
    Ok.

    Just pointing out how stupid it is for men to complain about a lack of medical attention when they're the ones refusing to see doctors.

  5. #115
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    Re: What would you expect a woman to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    We don't need you to help us. We don't want to go to the ****ing doctor! At first I was cool with women fighting causes for men, but after looking into it some more I realize it's just ****ing annoying. It's like they want to be mothers to all men. My mother is in her mid-fifties and I only have one. Stop it.
    Unfortunately, we do need them to fight for us. Men are generally subborn but are genetically greatly influence by women. Just as women need help physically in some areas, men also need some help from women.
    - There was never a good war, or a bad peace.
    - Idealistically, everything should work as you planed it to. Realistically, it depends on how idealistic you are as to the measure of success.
    - Better to be a pessimist before, and an optimist afterwords.

  6. #116
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    Re: What would you expect a woman to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    Ok.

    Just pointing out how stupid it is for men to complain about a lack of medical attention when they're the ones refusing to see doctors.
    Don't you see that, that is the problem. It is the criticism that effects men the most. As a mother, wife or sister you have ALOT of influence on them. If you are a woman, you understand this concept completely. It has always been a woman's secret weapon, is her sexual influence over men.
    - There was never a good war, or a bad peace.
    - Idealistically, everything should work as you planed it to. Realistically, it depends on how idealistic you are as to the measure of success.
    - Better to be a pessimist before, and an optimist afterwords.

  7. #117
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    Re: What would you expect a woman to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    Ok.

    Just pointing out how stupid it is for men to complain about a lack of medical attention when they're the ones refusing to see doctors.
    The point is we don't need women to tell us what we already damn well know. It's not as if we don't know what we should have done and when. Men do not like going to doctor and like it or not that is our choice to make for whatever reason we see fit and it doesn't matter if you like or not. I don't care what you think it is based on and I don't even care myself what it is based on. I don't want to go to the damn doctor.

  8. #118
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    Re: What would you expect a woman to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    The point is we don't need women to tell us what we already damn well know. It's not as if we don't know what we should have done and when. Men do not like going to doctor and like it or not that is our choice to make for whatever reason we see fit and it doesn't matter if you like or not. I don't care what you think it is based on and I don't even care myself what it is based on. I don't want to go to the damn doctor.

    That is your choice, but it is ignorant.
    - There was never a good war, or a bad peace.
    - Idealistically, everything should work as you planed it to. Realistically, it depends on how idealistic you are as to the measure of success.
    - Better to be a pessimist before, and an optimist afterwords.

  9. #119
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    Re: What would you expect a woman to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Capster78 View Post
    That is your choice, but it is ignorant.
    Very ignorant. My father was the same way. Spent his entire life refusing to even go to the doctor for a single shot. Dropped dead of a heart attack at 67 years old. The first time he ever had a needle in his arm was when he was hooked up to IVs, in the bed he died in, while we stood around, crying, begging him not to leave us.

    Had he gone to a doctor, this probably would have been avoided with medication.
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  10. #120
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    Re: What would you expect a woman to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Superfly View Post
    Very ignorant. My father was the same way. Spent his entire life refusing to even go to the doctor for a single shot. Dropped dead of a heart attack at 67 years old. The first time he ever had a needle in his arm was when he was hooked up to IVs, in the bed he died in, while we stood around, crying, begging him not to leave us.

    Had he gone to a doctor, this probably would have been avoided with medication.
    Yes.. and this is what we need to bring to the forefront.. These are great men.. our fathers.. our brothers... our peers... We neet to further mens health issues.
    - There was never a good war, or a bad peace.
    - Idealistically, everything should work as you planed it to. Realistically, it depends on how idealistic you are as to the measure of success.
    - Better to be a pessimist before, and an optimist afterwords.

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