View Poll Results: Do Any Dems/Liberals/Progressives Support Obamas Cuts To Social Security?

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Thread: Do Any Dems/Liberals/Progressives Support Obamas Cuts To Social Security?

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    Re: Do Any Dems/Liberals/Progressives Support Obamas Cuts To Social Security?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    The United States is not broke and doesn't have to cut anyone's benefits. The problem is that we gave all the money to the rich, and they stuck it in offshore bank accounts.
    It's disturbing that people actually think this. Tax revenue as a percent of GDP is the same as it was in the '50s-'60s. The level of debt, however, is way way larger. The bigger the debt gets, the higher the interest payments get, causing the debt to grow even further. The debt crisis needs to be solved before the current exponential growth of debt destroys this country.

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    Re: Do Any Dems/Liberals/Progressives Support Obamas Cuts To Social Security?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    The United States is not broke and doesn't have to cut anyone's benefits. The problem is that we gave all the money to the rich, and they stuck it in offshore bank accounts.
    Well that's concise! Totally incorrect, but definitely concise.

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    Re: Do Any Dems/Liberals/Progressives Support Obamas Cuts To Social Security?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Serious View Post
    SS is a Ponzi scheme. If we want to wring as much out of it as possible it must be means tested. I am in favor of getting rid of it for future workers, yes. For those who are now on it or will be on it if they have other means of income then a proportion of that would have go against their SS share. It doesn't matter what was promised eighty years ago young workers should not bear the burden of the cost of the system which they will not benefit from. We can print more money to sustain those who are on SS and need it but the program must not have the bulk of the burden on workers who are generally poorer that those who are now benefiting from it.
    What of the other 70+ income redistribution schemes that comprise the federal "safety net"? SS was considered wonderful until it no longer produced a surplus to be spent on other federal programs. Why not simply increase the SS "contribution" amount to correct for the current (recent) shortfall? That is EXACTLY what Obama is doing for all of the other "prefered" federal social program spending that he is INCREASING. Why can we add PPACA and "Pre-K" aid yet now must cut SS/Medicare?
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: Do Any Dems/Liberals/Progressives Support Obamas Cuts To Social Security?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kreton View Post
    I understand what you are saying, but previous generations paid our government that money and were promised returns in their later years. Our country has an obligation to them. I am all for reform to the SS program or dissolving it all together, but not for the people are country has an obligation to.
    And those recipients who are depending on SS as the sole means will still be receiving it and thus the obligation in their case will be upheld. For those who do have other income SS must be reduced by some proportion so those who do depend on it can receive their full share and not have it reduce due to budget considerations. Also do I need really to point out that the older recipients did not pay their fair share into SS I remember back during Bush the Elder's Administration the proportion of the workers income for SS was increased to make SS solvent longer. So for some of the older workers they may have been promised SS but they have not payed in as much and if they have other income then I think it is fair that a proportion of that count against the SS benefit.
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    Re: Do Any Dems/Liberals/Progressives Support Obamas Cuts To Social Security?

    I am a secret progressive poe. That said, the only meaningful thing we can do is mean test SS. Anything short of that will not save the system with full benefits to recipients. eventually the autocrats are going to run out of money to help anybody with if they don't learn that everybody cannot be made not poor.

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    Re: Do Any Dems/Liberals/Progressives Support Obamas Cuts To Social Security?

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    What of the other 70+ income redistribution schemes that comprise the federal "safety net"? SS was considered wonderful until it no longer produced a surplus to be spent on other federal programs. Why not simply increase the SS "contribution" amount to correct for the current (recent) shortfall? That is EXACTLY what Obama is doing for all of the other "prefered" federal social program spending that he is INCREASING. Why can we add PPACA and "Pre-K" aid yet now must cut SS/Medicare?
    I never cared for SS. I recognized it as a raw deal since at some point some generation it going to pay in it and get nothing out of it. The issue is that Congress is going to gimmick the system for current beneficiaries (give better benefits) and by loading the cost on existing workers (making it harder for them in their current life) and making it unsustainable when it is their turn to benefit (kicking the can down the road only works as long as you have road to work with).

    SS is one that everyone is forced to participate in. Obviously the Dems want even more mandatory programs that are to be paid by the workers for those who won't be working. The only good thing about it is that the road will end a lot sooner than otherwise.
    An Enlightened Master is ideal only if your goal is to become a Benighted Slave. -- Robert Anton Wilson

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    Re: Do Any Dems/Liberals/Progressives Support Obamas Cuts To Social Security?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Serious View Post
    I never cared for SS. I recognized it as a raw deal since at some point some generation it going to pay in it and get nothing out of it. The issue is that Congress is going to gimmick the system for current beneficiaries (give better benefits) and by loading the cost on existing workers (making it harder for them in their current life) and making it unsustainable when it is their turn to benefit (kicking the can down the road only works as long as you have road to work with).

    SS is one that everyone is forced to participate in. Obviously the Dems want even more mandatory programs that are to be paid by the workers for those who won't be working. The only good thing about it is that the road will end a lot sooner than otherwise.
    Not quite correct, but SS/Medicare "contributions" are as close as we get to a universal federal tax. If you eliminate SS/Medicare then many folks will then have ZERO federal taxation, thus the liberal dream - only "the rich" pay any federal payroll/income taxes as the rest are hidden and passed down to the poor/middle class (mostly via invisible price inflation).
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: Do Any Dems/Liberals/Progressives Support Obamas Cuts To Social Security?

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    Not quite correct, but SS/Medicare "contributions" are as close as we get to a universal federal tax. If you eliminate SS/Medicare then many folks will then have ZERO federal taxation, thus the liberal dream - only "the rich" pay any federal payroll/income taxes as the rest are hidden and passed down to the poor/middle class (mostly via invisible price inflation).
    The issue of having some sort of universal federal tax is a separate issue to SS. Everyone should pay taxes for the necessary functions that government provides such as national defense and the execution of laws and such. The problem is that the promises made generations ago which cannot be maintained mathematically must be delt with by phasing out those systems. I favor a laws encouraging if not outright mandating "retirement" accounts and I put that in quotes since I believe that it is more on the line of personal maintenance accounts instead, since people can become disabled or ill in addition of wanting to "retire" after some decades of work.
    An Enlightened Master is ideal only if your goal is to become a Benighted Slave. -- Robert Anton Wilson

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    Re: Do Any Dems/Liberals/Progressives Support Obamas Cuts To Social Security?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Serious View Post
    The issue of having some sort of universal federal tax is a separate issue to SS. Everyone should pay taxes for the necessary functions that government provides such as national defense and the execution of laws and such. The problem is that the promises made generations ago which cannot be maintained mathematically must be delt with by phasing out those systems. I favor a laws encouraging if not outright mandating "retirement" accounts and I put that in quotes since I believe that it is more on the line of personal maintenance accounts instead, since people can become disabled or ill in addition of wanting to "retire" after some decades of work.
    Back to the good old days before SS/Medicare? Just how much "savings" will an average low wage ($30K per year) worker accumulate (especially if then subjected to your "universal" federal taxation)? If you have an insifficient PMA account balance then you will get federal "safety net" benefits anyway, so why work "on the books"? I stopped working "on the books" since my SS will not go up because it is based on my highest earning years. You also ignore that the employer now matches these employee "contributions" at 100%, so the employer gets a huge tax break if SS/Medicare were to "disappear".
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: Do Any Dems/Liberals/Progressives Support Obamas Cuts To Social Security?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Serious View Post
    SS is a Ponzi scheme.
    Yes, it is, but this is not the worst part. The collapse of generational pyramid can be prevented by sharply increasing immigration - and tilting it toward younger people.

    I find this the leftist allergy toward all and any suggestions of reforming SS especially amusing because the system is horrendously regressive: the payroll tax is by far the biggest tax burden on the poorest, while it is applied to all income under $106,800; on the employer's side, it is a big deterrent for job creation, and, of course, if you don't live to the ripe old age (as the poor less likely to do), you are cheated out your money, and that's the end of it. And what kind of pension system squeezes money out of the working poor to cut big fat checks to the retired rich ? - I hope no one seriously thinks about SS as actual personal savings accounts anymore...

    And of course the undiversified nature of the SS Trust Fund -T-bills only - should give pause to anyone - socialist or not. We are taxing people and using the loot to inflate the debt of the same very government, aren't we? Can't our "progressive" friends at least be bothered to look at the experience of places like Norway, with pension treasure chests composed of many balanced elements and basically turned into sovereign wealth funds earning money even during economic downturns, and not at risk of turning into a pumpkin even if national bonds lose their value on the market?

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