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Thread: Should polygamists have the right to marry?

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    Re: Should polygamists have the right to marry?

    Quote Originally Posted by Libertas-Mors View Post
    The word 'marriage' itself in a secular country is not important to me.
    But your implied dualism is simply false, an erroneous construction.

    Marriage, which is between a man and a woman as husband and wife, began a little before the agricultural revolution 12,000 years ago, and is a global human endeavor that predates religion, the Bible, Christianity, every religion, and the oath of marriage is taken both in and out of religion, worldwide today, between a man and a woman as husband and wife.

    Your "secular country" implication, attempting the inapplicable association of marriage with religion, is simply erroneous with respect to fact.

    Thus your implication that marriage is a religious institution, an erroneous implication, is meaningless.


    Quote Originally Posted by Libertas-Mors View Post
    A civil union would be just fine as far as I am concerned.
    A domestic partnership civil union is exactly what marriage -- between a man and a woman as husband and wife -- is in the government's eyes.

    Domestic partnership civil unions can be more than one type, marriage simply being one type. Gays in romance can have homarriage, polygamists in romance can have polmarriage, all can be specifically and similarly defined domestic partnership civil unions, with, of course, different names to intelligently differentiate, just like cat-owners have cat shows and dog-owners have dog shows, to keep within the intelligent application of accurate naming according to definitive propriety.

    There will be some who will argue against polygamy, and that will be a battle, I suppose, though I have no "dog" in that fight.

    My beef is in doing stupid things and then legally compelling society and citizens to respect such stupidity, like ludicrously associating marriage with gays and polygamists and the like, as that's simply a violation of definitive propriety, and such stupidity dumbs down subsequent generations and creates societal regression as opposed to progression.


    Quote Originally Posted by Libertas-Mors View Post
    Although, I don't see how it preserves the sanctity of marriage from your POV provided that (read IF) the SC allows for gay marriage.
    A SCOTUS pre-conceived ideological mistake of allowing SS couples an association with marriage, not requiring a separately named domestic partnership civil union for them, would simply be a mistake, an egregious violation of definitive propriety, complete politically motivated.

    It will still be a mistake, even if it's the SCOTUS making it .. and, it can be reversed in time, but in the meantime it would just be a step back, as in "two steps forward, one step back", the typical way our species progresses.

    Again, your use of the word "sanctity" in describing marriage is to imply a religious connection, which I've pointed out is an erroneous assumption on your part.

    Marrage is a time-honored human institution, predating religion, the oath of which is performed outside of religion as well as adopted by religion for religion's control sake, and thus religion is meaningless in the matter.
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    Re: Should polygamists have the right to marry?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardener View Post
    As to the differences between gay marriage and polygamy, the differences should be obvious.
    They should, perhaps, but too often what some say are "obvious differences" are simply not, but merely personal constructs, and the obvious topical difference -- the foundational definitive propriety reality that marriage is between a man and a woman as huband and wife -- is completely ignored.

    I wonder why ...


    Quote Originally Posted by Gardener View Post
    Sexual orientation is hard wired,
    Yes .. but that's neither here nor there with respect to what marriage is: between a man and a woman as husband and wife.

    If it's not "a man and a woman", it isn't marrage, and that's the sole, definitive propriety, winning argument in the matter that excludes polygamists, as well as gays, from marriage.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gardener View Post
    while polygamy is an entirely societal construct.
    Polygamy is an aspect of human history .. but so is homarriage and marriage.

    They are all domestic partnership civil unions, as we contemporarily refer to them -- that's what they've always been.

    So there's no differentiation argument referencing the similar "sociatal construct" that would reasonably exclude polygamists from having their own domestic partnership civil union .. though it would be a legal-wording nightmare to define.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gardener View Post
    As Ikari pointed out, such a traditional construct is based upon subjugation and repression,
    Absolutely ludicrous!

    To imply that the definitive propriety reality that marriage is between a man and a woman as husband wife is a "societal construct" that is traditionaly based upon "subjugation and repression" (of gays and others) is the height of extremist thinking.

    That you would align with similar Ikari so extremistly victimish likely has some sad personal underpinnings.

    Regardless, it's simply false, and a ridiculous notion that no one in the vast overwhelming non-extremist majority takes seriously.

    So far, you have no rational cogent argument.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gardener View Post
    As to the inane arguments about marrying other species, these do not address the matter of consent, so obviously so that anybody suggesting this is any sort of logical outgrown from allowing gay marriage deserves nothing but complete ridicule.
    Though consent is a requirement for some, it is not the foundational argument that separates human-animal "relations" from human-human ones, as global humanity has engaged in pre-arranged marriages for thousands of years, and that means, obviously and famously, that these relationships often had one or more partners who were not giving their consent, but merely acquiesced to the marriage, sometimes under threat of the penalty of death if they refused.

    No, there is but one foundational reasoned cogent winning argument that excludes human-animal "couples" as well as SS couples and 3-or-more-humans from association with the word "marriage": because, with respect to the foundational appeal to definitive propriety, marriage is and always has been between a man and a woman as husband and wfe.

    It really is just that simple.

    Nevertheless, it's about nice time to see an attempt from you at formulating a reasoned cogent argument.

    Maybe, with a little practice, next time you'll have better success.
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    Re: Should polygamists have the right to marry?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ontologuy View Post
    That you would align with similar Ikari so extremistly victimish likely has some sad personal underpinnings.

    .
    Have you ever considered the many merits of a remedial writing course?
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    Re: Should polygamists have the right to marry?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardener View Post
    Have you ever considered the many merits of a remedial writing course?
    Not only do you rile against an absolutely non-existent nothing, but, given the chance to have a topically relevant detailed discussion of the particulars of the issue, you defer in lieu of your typical M.O.: initiation of personal ad hominems sans topically relevant content.



    Why am I not surprised!
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    Re: Should polygamists have the right to marry?

    Marriage, in today's society, is no longer an "institution", an instrumental foundation of society. It is nothing more than a legal contract acknowledged, rewarded, and protected by government for no discernible reason.

    Therefore, government should not be in the business of marriage any longer and if it is, it no longer has any basis for discrimination and must leave the contractural decision making up to the adults involved. If I, as a man, wish to enter into a contractural arrangement with any other person, the government should not and, if the law continues to move, may not stand in the way of that contract.

    As long as each and every partner in a polygamous relationship enter into such a contract freely, openly, and knowingly, it must now be protected as any other "marriage" contract moving forward.

    However, if one partner in a "marriage" is not aware of additional "marriage" partners his/her partner has contracted with, then the first contract must prevail over any other contract unless, again, all parties to the contract reach agreement.

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    Re: Should polygamists have the right to marry?

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    Marriage, in today's society, is no longer an "institution", an instrumental foundation of society. It is nothing more than a legal contract acknowledged, rewarded, and protected by government for no discernible reason.

    Therefore, government should not be in the business of marriage any longer and if it is, it no longer has any basis for discrimination and must leave the contractural decision making up to the adults involved. If I, as a man, wish to enter into a contractural arrangement with any other person, the government should not and, if the law continues to move, may not stand in the way of that contract.

    As long as each and every partner in a polygamous relationship enter into such a contract freely, openly, and knowingly, it must now be protected as any other "marriage" contract moving forward.

    However, if one partner in a "marriage" is not aware of additional "marriage" partners his/her partner has contracted with, then the first contract must prevail over any other contract unless, again, all parties to the contract reach agreement.
    Each of these domestic partnership civil union contracts must have a unique separate name, as do all such contracts, including those that are topically germane.

    For a man and woman as husband and wife, the contract is called "marriage".

    For SS couples, the contract is more rightly called "homarriage".

    For polygamy partners, the contract is more rightly call polmarriage.

    However, with polmarriage, that's gotta be one hell of a specific to each unique combination contract, frequently revised, and thus there is no good standard to be utilized like there is with a permanent and exclusive two-partner relationship like marriage and homarriage ..

    .. Unless, of course, the polmarriage contract creates an exclusion for additional partners at that time, then it may be more workable, but the fact that such a partnership could have any number of participants at its inception makes for a challenge for government to adminstrate with regard to all the usual applicable particulars for which government assisted materials/societal management is historically involved.
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    Re: Should polygamists have the right to marry?

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    I don't see why not, if all are consenting adults.
    Because a triangle is the most unstable thing in human affairs, whether they are politics, international diplomacy, or the living room. On the practical side, though, if there are two wives and the husband becomes incapacitated then who makes the medical decisions for him? If both agree then everything is great but what if they don't? Also, is the third spouse responsible for children from the other two?

    I'd tend to agree with you on an individual freedom level but there are a lot of legal complications that arise when you add a third party into the mix.
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    Should polygamists have the right to marry?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    Because a triangle is the most unstable thing in human affairs, whether they are politics, international diplomacy, or the living room. On the practical side, though, if there are two wives and the husband becomes incapacitated then who makes the medical decisions for him? If both agree then everything is great but what if they don't? Also, is the third spouse responsible for children from the other two?

    I'd tend to agree with you on an individual freedom level but there are a lot of legal complications that arise when you add a third party into the mix.
    How about squares? :-)

    I am rather confident that such specific issues could be hammered out in a contract when you go in to get your marriage license.

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    Re: Should polygamists have the right to marry?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    Because a triangle is the most unstable thing in human affairs, whether they are politics, international diplomacy, or the living room. On the practical side, though, if there are two wives and the husband becomes incapacitated then who makes the medical decisions for him? If both agree then everything is great but what if they don't? Also, is the third spouse responsible for children from the other two?

    I'd tend to agree with you on an individual freedom level but there are a lot of legal complications that arise when you add a third party into the mix.
    But now you're getting into "protecting people from themselves" territory. Not saying these concerns don't exist, but is it the government's responsibility to do something about it?
    If you claim sexual harassment to be wrong, yet you defend anyone on your side for any reason,
    then you are a hypocrite and everything you say on the matter is just babble.

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    Re: Should polygamists have the right to marry?

    Quote Originally Posted by Libertas-Mors View Post
    How about squares? :-)

    I am rather confident that such specific issues could be hammered out in a contract when you go in to get your marriage license.
    I was going to say that the Pyramids, perhaps the most famous of triangles every established by humans have survived centuries - who's to say polygamous marriages wouldn't be equally as strong.

    Once government eliminates the institutional concept of marriage as a union between one man and one woman to accommodate same sex marriage, it has no basis in logic or law to discriminate against any other union any two or more people wish to enter into.

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