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Thread: Should polygamists have the right to marry?

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    Re: Should polygamists have the right to marry?

    Quote Originally Posted by Libertas-Mors View Post
    It doesn't matter what the 'burden' of the government is. The question is whether polygamists should be able to get married and you have offered nothing compelling of substantive either way.
    So you get to decide what criteria people use to decide for themselves the answer to the question?

    My first criteria when it comes to the LAW is whether or not the LAW is constitutional in nature. The marriage laws as they current sit are an unconstitutional discrimination on the basis of gender in my mind, so I don't agree with them. I see no constitutional issue what so ever when it comes to discriminating against polygamists.

    My next criteria would be is it a worth while, necessary, useful law that falls within some general scope of the Government. In terms of polygamy, I don't view it as exceedingly needed nor worth while in terms of the multitude of legal issues that it interjects into things.

    I don't see any compelling reason to change the legal code significantly to allow for polygamy to be recognized under the law. "They're consenting adults" is not a compelling reason as we don't have the government officially recognizing MANY things consenting adults can do together. "But yo'ure letting the gays do it!" is not a compelling reason, because there's an actual strong constitutional reasoning behind allowing for that in my mind...one that is simply not present when it comes to polygamy.

    No, polygamists shouldn't be able to get married in a sense that is legally recognized and incentivized by the Government.

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    Re: Should polygamists have the right to marry?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ontologuy View Post
    It never ceases to amaze me how pre-conceived ideology, left, right, or libertarianly schizoid, can so greatly dumb down its sufferer to the degree that the obvious is rendered nebulous to them.
    It never ceases to amaze me how those most prone to disparaging the intelligence of other show nothing of the stuff, themselves.

    Dressing up poorly written bigotry with words gleaned from a thesaurus does not a compelling argument make.
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    Should polygamists have the right to marry?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ontologuy View Post
    Should cat-owners be allowed to enter their cats in a dog show?

    According to the foundational appeal to definitive propriety in any such question, the answer is, obviously, no.

    Likewise, since marriage is what it is -- between a man and a woman as husband and wife -- again with respect to definitive propriety, the question itself is ludicrously stupid, and the answer is again, obviously, no.

    Polygamists can have their own-named civil union domestic partnership, legally recognized by government and private enterprise, calling it polmarriage or whatever, but they can't call it marriage, because that civil union domestic partnership is already pre-defined for over 12,000 years and legally pre-named as being what it is -- between a man and a woman as husband and wife.

    It never ceases to amaze me how pre-conceived ideology, left, right, or libertarianly schizoid, can so greatly dumb down its sufferer to the degree that the obvious is rendered nebulous to them.
    The word 'marriage' itself in a secular country is not important to me. A civil union would be just fine as far as I am concerned. Although, I don't see how it preserves the sanctity of marriage from your POV provided that (read IF) the SC allows for gay marriage.

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    Re: Should polygamists have the right to marry?

    As to the differences between gay marriage and polygamy, the differences should be obvious. Sexual orientation is hard wired, while polygamy is an entirely societal construct. As Ikari pointed out, such a traditional construct is based upon subjugation and repression, and so acts to limit rights rather than further them.

    As to the inane arguments about marrying other species, these do not address the matter of consent, so obviously so that anybody suggesting this is any sort of logical outgrown from allowing gay marriage deserves nothing but complete ridicule.
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    Re: Should polygamists have the right to marry?

    Most overused... and misused... word in topics like this: "obvious".

    If anything were literally obvious, there wouldn't be any debate.
    If you claim sexual harassment to be wrong, yet you defend anyone on your side for any reason,
    then you are a hypocrite and everything you say on the matter is just babble.

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    Re: Should polygamists have the right to marry?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardener View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ontologuy
    It never ceases to amaze me how pre-conceived ideology, left, right, or libertarianly schizoid, can so greatly dumb down its sufferer to the degree that the obvious is rendered nebulous to them.
    It never ceases to amaze me how those most prone to disparaging the intelligence of other show nothing of the stuff, themselves. Dressing up poorly written bigotry with words gleaned from a thesaurus does not a compelling argument make.
    I find it interesting from your projection standpoint what unintentionally baits you, as it reveals your sole M.O. on the revelant topic.

    And, of course, you completely ignored the parts of the winning argument I posted .. for obvious reasons.

    You've yet to posit your own detailed perspective on the matter .. likely because you have none.

    Instead, you simply issue unprovoked ad hominems, complete with the erroneous "Bigot!", against those posters who present a reasoned cogent winning argument on the topic, criticizing with absolute nothings, simply because those reasoned cogent obviously winning arguments makes your conclusion on the matter a loser.

    Again, next time, try to engage in topically relevant discussion sans initiation of personal ad hominems.

    Who knows, you might even have a topically relevant point to make .. because so far, you've attempted to make no point at all.
    You don't trust Trump? Well, there's only one way to leverage him to do what's economically right for us all: Powerful American Political Alliance. Got courage?! .. and a mere $5.00?

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    Should polygamists have the right to marry?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    So you get to decide what criteria people use to decide for themselves the answer to the question?

    My first criteria when it comes to the LAW is whether or not the LAW is constitutional in nature. The marriage laws as they current sit are an unconstitutional discrimination on the basis of gender in my mind, so I don't agree with them. I see no constitutional issue what so ever when it comes to discriminating against polygamists.
    Right. This is entirely arbitrary. You heave and haw over people that see changing the definition of marriage to include homo marriages as 'bigots' yet you prefer your own specially brewed brand of bigotry against poly marriages. Fascinating.

    My next criteria would be is it a worth while, necessary, useful law that falls within some general scope of the Government. In terms of polygamy, I don't view it as exceedingly needed nor worth while in terms of the multitude of legal issues that it interjects into things.
    And some people feel exactly the same way about gay marriage....

    I don't see any compelling reason to change the legal code significantly to allow for polygamy to be recognized under the law. "They're consenting adults" is not a compelling reason as we don't have the government officially recognizing MANY things consenting adults can do together. "But yo'ure letting the gays do it!" is not a compelling reason, because there's an actual strong constitutional reasoning behind allowing for that in my mind...one that is simply not present when it comes to polygamy.

    No, polygamists shouldn't be able to get married in a sense that is legally recognized and incentivized by the Government.
    When gay marriage is approved there will be no legal case against civil unions/marriages for those with polyamorous proclivities. Again, you want to change the current legal status of marriage to include homos (your favored group) but not polys based on so far as I can see....nothing but personal preference.

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    Re: Should polygamists have the right to marry?

    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    Certain sects in certain parts of the country place heavy coercion on the practice. Be that as it is, I still agree with your statement that it's fine as long as consenting adults are involved. I'd like to eliminate (as much as possible) the coercion in those few sects, though.
    As I said, I haven't seen evidence of coercion, but even if it is a fact, it remains that consenting adults should have the ability to make that choice. To try and "eliminate" that, would entail government intervention in the private relationships/ choices of individuals, which I wholly oppose. It isn't uncommon to see a woman or man enter a monogamous marriage in which she/he is emotionally manipulated by the spouse, in the general population. I wouldn't expect different relationship dynamics in specific religious groups. Trying to insure that women would not be marginalized in marriage could easily place restrictions on monogamous marriages of some Christian or Muslim couples.
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    Re: Should polygamists have the right to marry?

    Quote Originally Posted by Libertas-Mors View Post
    Right. This is entirely arbitrary. You heave and haw over people that see changing the definition of marriage to include homo marriages as 'bigots' yet you prefer your own specially brewed brand of bigotry against poly marriages. Fascinating.
    WOW stereotype much. Please, find me an instance where I've suggested those that disagree with same sex marriage are "bigots". Please, be my guest.

    Here's some shocking information for you based on what yo'uve posted in this thread....people are not robots, and just because they have a particular view does not mean they automatically fit into your prejudiced preconcieved notions of everything they think and say.

    Now, as to this part of my argument being arbitrary, that's just definitively false. As in, calling it such highlights you don't know what hte word arbitrary means:

    "1. Based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system."

    Basing my views on the Constitution and Constitutional Law is distinctly and clearly basing my views on a SYSTEM...NOT on personal whim. It's the very definition of the opposite of arbitrary.

    One instance is lawful in my opinion based no the SYSTEM of governance we have in this country.

    One instance is not lawful in my opinion based on the SYSTEM of government we have in this country.

    Not based on personal whims. I don't personally or morally have any issue with polygamists so long as everyone is consenting. But

    And some people feel exactly the same way about gay marriage....
    And they're free to. I however can articulate an argument that would suggest the discrimination is rationally related to serving a legitimate state interest. In the case of those who say it about gay marriage, they have a higher standard to meet...they need to provide evidence the discrimination servers an IMPORTANT state interest and that the discrimination is SUBSTANTIALLY related to serving that interest.

    If they want to make that argument they're free to, I have no issue with that. I may have issue with the argument itself as I've yet to see someone put forward a reasonable one that actually reaches such a standard imho...but have no issues with a person simply making the argument.

    When gay marriage is approved there will be no legal case against civil unions/marriages for those with polyamorous proclivities.
    Sure there will be. The law is not written in such a way to allow for someone to be joined with another person multiple times, and all sorts of legal code is not written with the notion that it would have to define which spouse has what rights. Your statement doesn't just make sense, it's just plainly false.

    Again, you want to change the current legal status of marriage to include homos (your favored group) but not polys based on so far as I can see....nothing but personal preference.
    If you want to have an ignorant and erroneous opinion on views and statements I’ve never made and you’ve simply created in your head based on your prejudice towards anyone that holds a particular view, I can’t really stop you.

    If you care to comment on what I have actually said then I’d be happy to give a response to that. Otherwise, you’ll have to hope that strawman you just built up can learn how to talk or else it’s going to be a really one sided conversation.

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    Re: Should polygamists have the right to marry?

    The government is allowed to and does limit how many people can be named as a person's legal medical adviser in the event of incapacitation. Marriage does this automatically with the many other things that legal marriage does, the many other legal documents that marriage takes the place of. That limit is one person can be named for each. Allowing more than one person to be legally named another person's spouse means that we would have to change this legal part of marriage, since legally a person is not allowed to have more than one person named as their medical "liaison". This is but one major change needed if opening up marriage to more than two people.

    And the only thing required by the government is a reason legitimately related to the limitation in order to limit something under the lowest tier of scrutiny, where numbers of people within a marriage would fall. The above reason alone would be a legitimate reason, but there are many more (some of which I mentioned in my first post on this thread) that apply to the having greater than 2 people in a legal marriage that apply in no way to same sex marriage. There is no legitimate reason related to limiting marriage by the genders of the people, particularly not at the level of intermediate scrutiny.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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