View Poll Results: Criminal Immigrant vs Illegal Immigrant

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  • I agree with the term "Illegal Immigrant" and the term "Criminal Immigrant"

    12 38.71%
  • I agree with the term "Illegal Immigrant", but NOT the term "Criminal Immigrant"

    7 22.58%
  • I do NOT agree with the term "Illegal Immigrant", but I do agree with "Criminal Immigrant"

    3 9.68%
  • I do NOT agree with the use of the term "Illegal Immigrant" NOR do I agree with "Criminal Immigrant"

    3 9.68%
  • Other

    6 19.35%
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Thread: "Criminal Immigrant" instead of "Illegal Immigrant"?

  1. #51
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    Re: "Criminal Immigrant" instead of "Illegal Immigrant"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mathematician View Post
    Exactly, it came from a verb already in the dictionary, to describe them based on what they were doing. Logically, we often convert words to another part of speech for semantic purposes, especially when converting nouns to verbs.
    Actually, it came form an adjective. An adjective which means something very different from the noun.



    It sounds like we already have a set of words, so why add another?
    Isn't that kind of like how back in the day people said "We have a word for niggers already, so why add another?"



    My response is proportional to how much harm is done by such violation.
    How are you measuring and defining "harm"? Are you including the sociatal benefits of violating the law in your equations? I ask because there are multiple well-documented benefits that society enjoys from illegal immigration.



    It's completely reasonable that it should be easier if your spouse is American.
    Absolutely, but that doesn't mean it has to be as difficult as it is when you aren't married to an American. Out of curiosity, how long did you guys have to live abroad before she came here with you and in what country?


    Those stupid enough to make the choice to enter illegally are idiots.
    Well that's just stupid and uninformed nonsense right there. If you are faced with the choice of starvation and violent death in your country of origin, or illegal immigration to the US (a very real dichotomy for someone from Juarez, Mexico, let's say, where immediately escape is far preferable to waiting out the US immigration system), you'd have to be ****ing retarded to pick starvation and violent death in your homeland.

    Please don't make such stupid comments and then pretend that they do anything but make us all slightly dumber. It prevents any form of intelligent discourse on the topic from occurring.
    Tucker Case - Tard magnet.

  2. #52
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    Re: "Criminal Immigrant" instead of "Illegal Immigrant"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    It doens't matter what you call them, the way they came here is still illegal.
    Because message is power and is important in politics. The attempts to use things like "Undocumented Immigrant" or "Illegal Alien" aren't generally done because of some strange need by those that think of the people in that fashion to be reminded of the term. Rather, it's done as an attempt to sway the general societal bend and presentation of the issue in a way favorable to their individual political agenda as a means of influencing those that are on the fence.

    Yeah, in a group of people strongly against people being here illegally it shouldn't really matter if you call them anything from Undocumented Citizens to Frolicking Jackanapes...everyone there has a firm understanding that they're foreign tied individuals here in an illegal manner. Similarly, in a group of people strongly in favor of open borders or allowing those that are here illegally to stay, it ALSO doesn't really matter if they're called "soon to be citizens" or "Future Democratic Voters" . Everyone in THAT group also is fully aware of their thoughts regarding the legitimacy of them being in this country.

    Words are used for that unwashed portion in the middle that just has a mild touch with politics in general and thus the message and general tone of conversation of the day largely affects their mentalities. Something like "Undocumented Immigrant" or such paints a kinder and more benign picture of an individual whose here just trying to live the american dream like our immigrant forefathers but just didn't fill out the proper paperwork. Something like "Illegal Alien" paints the picture of a foreigner who decided to buck the system to wrongfully come here rather than follow the rules like those legal immigrants throughout our history.

    Now, your terminology does that as well which is why I imagine most won't be bothered by it. But Honestly, I don't see the "Illegal is grammatically incorrect" argument used very often so I don't see a big reason to change it based on that notion. And I do think WHAT you call them is somewhat important, only in so much as it sets the general political tone of conversation in the nation.

  3. #53
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    Re: "Criminal Immigrant" instead of "Illegal Immigrant"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    Actually, it came form an adjective. An adjective which means something very different from the noun.
    Thanks, I mispoke and said verb when I meant adjective. However, there is a clear similarity between the adjective and noun. Namely, an illegal did something which was illegal.

    Isn't that kind of like how back in the day people said "We have a word for niggers already, so why add another?"
    Yes, especially since blacks have chosen to keep the word around.

    How are you measuring and defining "harm"? Are you including the sociatal benefits of violating the law in your equations? I ask because there are multiple well-documented benefits that society enjoys from illegal immigration.
    Overall, illegal immigrants obviously cost taxpayers money. What do you see as the benefit of illegal immigration over legal?

    Absolutely, but that doesn't mean it has to be as difficult as it is when you aren't married to an American. Out of curiosity, how long did you guys have to live abroad before she came here with you and in what country?
    We didn't have to live abroad. I met her when I was overseas to lecture at an event. I flew her to stay with me a couple months, after six months of long distance communication. We knew in a short amount of time that there was no question we were soulmates, so we married and filed. I was aware that processing would be shorter if she didn't fly home. It was fun, and no harm ended up being done, marrying before meeting her family.

    Well that's just stupid and uninformed nonsense right there. If you are faced with the choice of starvation and violent death in your country of origin, or illegal immigration to the US (a very real dichotomy for someone from Juarez, Mexico, let's say, where immediately escape is far preferable to waiting out the US immigration system), you'd have to be ****ing retarded to pick starvation and violent death in your homeland.
    You make it sound like there's not a square mile of reasonably safe land in Mexico, which is bologna.
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  4. #54
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    Re: "Criminal Immigrant" instead of "Illegal Immigrant"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Because message is power and is important in politics. The attempts to use things like "Undocumented Immigrant" or "Illegal Alien" aren't generally done because of some strange need by those that think of the people in that fashion to be reminded of the term. Rather, it's done as an attempt to sway the general societal bend and presentation of the issue in a way favorable to their individual political agenda as a means of influencing those that are on the fence.

    Yeah, in a group of people strongly against people being here illegally it shouldn't really matter if you call them anything from Undocumented Citizens to Frolicking Jackanapes...everyone there has a firm understanding that they're foreign tied individuals here in an illegal manner. Similarly, in a group of people strongly in favor of open borders or allowing those that are here illegally to stay, it ALSO doesn't really matter if they're called "soon to be citizens" or "Future Democratic Voters" . Everyone in THAT group also is fully aware of their thoughts regarding the legitimacy of them being in this country.

    Words are used for that unwashed portion in the middle that just has a mild touch with politics in general and thus the message and general tone of conversation of the day largely affects their mentalities. Something like "Undocumented Immigrant" or such paints a kinder and more benign picture of an individual whose here just trying to live the american dream like our immigrant forefathers but just didn't fill out the proper paperwork. Something like "Illegal Alien" paints the picture of a foreigner who decided to buck the system to wrongfully come here rather than follow the rules like those legal immigrants throughout our history.

    Now, your terminology does that as well which is why I imagine most won't be bothered by it. But Honestly, I don't see the "Illegal is grammatically incorrect" argument used very often so I don't see a big reason to change it based on that notion. And I do think WHAT you call them is somewhat important, only in so much as it sets the general political tone of conversation in the nation.
    The "illegal is grammatically incorrect" argument is the primary foundation for opposition to the term. That's why people say, all the time, "a human being can't be illegal." when they oppose the term. In fact, I haven't actually seen many other arguments other than the grammatical one against "illegal immigrant".

    That being said, the main point you are making about words influencing public opinion is 100% correct. The real basis for opposition to changing the term is purely emotional and partisan. It has nothing to do with the accuracy of the term, and everything to do with the very same negative connotations that people try to pretend don't exist. They want to pretend that the term is purely descriptive, but that argument is pure idiocy. Of course it has negative connotations. Of course it affects the public perception of illegal immigrants.

    Unfortunately, people who support the term will, all too often, try to pretend it doesn't because they are too ****ing cowardly to admit that they LOVE that negative connotation and they LOVE how it impacts the public perception of illegal immigrants. I only get irritated when these people try to claim that "Oh, they are being too damned sensitive. **** them, words shouldn't matter. Let's talk about the real issues, not semantics. they're a bunch of pussies."

    I hate that kind of cowardly hypocritical bull****. As much as I enjoy getting into heated debates with Jamesrage on this issue, at least he has the ****ing balls to come out and state, unequivocally, that he ****ing loathes illegal immigrants and he doesn't want there to be a change because he feels that the term should be offensive to them. He wants to be offensive. He'll go out of his way to be offensive toward pro-illegals and illegals. I say good for him. I can respect that, even if I vehemently disagree with him on almost every position he has with regard to immigration. At least he has the stones to be honest about what he's doing. I wish that everyone who was on his side of the debate could at least be half as honest about it.
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  5. #55
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    Re: "Criminal Immigrant" instead of "Illegal Immigrant"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mathematician View Post
    Thanks, I mispoke and said verb when I meant adjective. However, there is a clear similarity between the adjective and noun. Namely, an illegal did something which was illegal.
    If that was accurate, all people who did something illegal would be called illegals. It's highly specific, though, which is why the word was made up for the sole purpose of describing the people it describes. There's no semantic accuracy inherent in it's use.



    Yes, especially since blacks have chosen to keep the word around.
    Sorry, that term predates the term black being used to describe them. Using your logic, you must always refer to them as niggers form now on. Good luck with that.



    Overall, illegal immigrants obviously cost taxpayers money.
    Not really. Teh tax issue is actually quite a mixed bag. If certain reforms were made (especially with health care), Illegals would definitely become a positive with regard to tax money.

    What do you see as the benefit of illegal immigration over legal?
    They pay a ****load in taxes which they cannot access. One of the best arguments against amnesty is based on the positive tax contributions they make to social secuirity especially, which gets billions in uncollectable money from them each year.



    We didn't have to live abroad. I met her when I was overseas to lecture at an event. I flew her to stay with me a couple months, after six months of long distance communication. We knew in a short amount of time that there was no question we were soulmates, so we married and filed. I was aware that processing would be shorter if she didn't fly home. It was fun, and no harm ended up being done, marrying before meeting her family.
    Wow. She got her green card in only a few months just for marrying you? Frankly, that's a load of bull****, IMO. (I just reread this, and I want to clarify that i am not saying I don't believe you, I'm saying that the system that allows this is deeply flawed). My cousin spent a decade trying to get his and he was working here legally that whole time in a highly skilled field that has a labor shortage. Talk about an ass backwards system where marrying someone you just met, potentially just for a greencard, is considered more valuable to the society than working here and contributing taxes for over a decade. Hell, the guy witnessed 9/11 and then spent a week volunteering at a blood bank afterwards. Yet it took a decade for him to get his greencard. And not for lack of effort, either.


    You make it sound like there's not a square mile of reasonably safe land in Mexico, which is bologna.
    Nothing like what exists almost everywhere in this country. And the risk of starvation decreases dramatically too. Why do you assume that trying to find that safe part of Mexico is smarter than jumping over the nearby border and guaranteeing that one is significantly safer and has greater access to food, healthcare, and their future children will be safer and better fed?
    Tucker Case - Tard magnet.

  6. #56
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    Re: "Criminal Immigrant" instead of "Illegal Immigrant"?

    Undocumented worker.

  7. #57
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    Re: "Criminal Immigrant" instead of "Illegal Immigrant"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. E View Post
    Undocumented worker.
    I don't like that one because it treats unemployed illegals as though they don't exist.
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  8. #58
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    Re: "Criminal Immigrant" instead of "Illegal Immigrant"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    An interesting idea occurred to me. The argument against the term "illegal immigrant" that has the most merit is that it is grammatically incorrect. I know that some people disagree, but their disagreement is irrelvent to this thread (so I am asking people to please refrain from ****ing up this thread by trying to defend or attack the term "illegal immigrant"). This thread is about whether or not people find the undeniably grammatically accurate term "Criminal Immigrant" to be an acceptable alternative to "illegal immigrant".

    Please vote in the poll. The options are:

    I support the use of the term "Illegal Immigrant", but I do find term "Criminal Immigrant" to be an acceptable alternative.

    I support the use of the term "Illegal Immigrant", but I do NOT find term "Criminal Immigrant" to be an acceptable alternative.

    I do NOT support the term "Illegal Immigrant", but I do find the term "Criminal Immigrant" to be an acceptable alternative.

    I do NOT support the use of the term "Illegal Immigrant", and I do NOT find term "Criminal Immigrant" to be an acceptable alternative.

    Other
    I'd prefer illegal alien.

    Illegal
    Against or not authorized by law

    Alien
    A foreign born person who has not qualified as a citizen of the country



    To me "immigrant" implies a permanent stay, which also seems to imply legal migration. But here's the definition:

    Immigrant
    An alien in a country except, in United States, one within the specified class within the Immigration and Nationality Act. 8 USCA 1101(a)(15).
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 04-04-13 at 08:50 PM.
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  9. #59
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    Re: "Criminal Immigrant" instead of "Illegal Immigrant"?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    I'd prefer illegal alien.

    Illegal
    Against or not authorized by law

    Alien
    A foreign born person who has not qualified as a citizen of the country



    To me "immigrant" implies a permanent stay, which also seems to imply legal migration. But here's the definition:

    Immigrant
    An alien in a country except, in United States, one within the specified class within the Immigration and Nationality Act. 8 USCA 1101(a)(15).
    I'm not sure why people seem to think that immigrant implies a permanent stay. I don't have that belief at all, but perhaps that is because I know so many different immigrants from different countries, many of whom have no intention whatsoever of staying here after they retire.
    Tucker Case - Tard magnet.

  10. #60
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    Re: "Criminal Immigrant" instead of "Illegal Immigrant"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    I'm not sure why people seem to think that immigrant implies a permanent stay. I don't have that belief at all, but perhaps that is because I know so many different immigrants from different countries, many of whom have no intention whatsoever of staying here after they retire.
    For the same reason you keep saying that "Illegal" is wrong. Because the definition of immigrant:

    "a person who comes to a country to take up permanent residence"

    Which highlights my earlier comments in terms of your point. There's the actual literal definition of words and then there is the general societally understood usage of them. EVERYONE tends to pick and choose when they want to go with the former or the latter

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