View Poll Results: Is welfare capitalism?

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  • Yes but it should go away

    0 0%
  • Yes, it's OK

    2 10.53%
  • No and it should go away

    9 47.37%
  • No but it's OK to stay

    7 36.84%
  • I don't know

    1 5.26%
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Thread: Is welfare capitalism?

  1. #21
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    Re: Is welfare capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mach View Post
    Off the cuff I would think that's trivially true based on reality.
    Are you suggesting that welfare is a by-product of Capitalism?

  2. #22
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    Re: Is welfare capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Canell View Post
    Are you suggesting that welfare is a by-product of Capitalism?
    No. But remember this comes from your own suggestion to use that link, so really you're currently backing it.

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/polls/...post1061652225

    I am interpreting it for you. And no, welfare is not suggested to be a by-product of capitaism in that above claim, although I almost wrote the same thing a few times.
    It is suggesting that welfare itself is rational. That capitalism fully engaged will result in people having the freedom and resources to supply welfare better (presumably more effectively) than in any other system. And I think we all know the quality of life that has arisen from adopting largely capitalistic aspects of economic policy and its lifted more people out of poverty and provides more dollars for welfare than...alternatives. Although I hear North Korea can rain fire on people :/

    See the difference?
    Last edited by Mach; 04-04-13 at 03:10 PM.

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    Re: Is welfare capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mach View Post
    You did when you suggested we use the definition in post #19. I'm concerned that you asked that....

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/polls/...post1061652225
    I don't know dude. "Common good" and "welfare" are not the same, imho. Let's try again from the site capitalism.org:

    Capitalism is a social system based on the principle of individual rights. Politically, it is the system of laissez-faire (freedom). Legally it is a system of objective laws (rule of law as opposed to rule of man). Economically, when such freedom is applied to the sphere of production its’ result is the free-market.
    Nothing about welfare or welfare benefits.

  4. #24
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    Re: Is welfare capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Canell View Post
    I don't know dude. "Common good" and "welfare" are not the same, imho.
    So welfare is not for the common good? Please elaborate, I would not have thought you'd hold that position!

    Nothing about welfare or welfare benefits.
    The same author, on the same page, remarks on the relationship though, why are you dismissing it?

    “The moral justification of capitalism does not lie in the altruist claim that it represents the best way to achieve ‘the common good.’ It is true that capitalism does—if that catch-phrase has any meaning—but this is merely a secondary consequence. The moral justification of capitalism lies in the fact that it is the only system consonant with man’s rational nature, that it protects man’s survival qua man, and that its ruling principle is: justice.” — AYN RAND
    Or:
    Quote Originally Posted by rand
    Impossible right to economic security implies slave labor: Morally, the promise of an impossible 'right' to economic security is an infamous attempt to abrogate the concept of rights. It can and does mean only one thing: a promise to enslave the men who produce, for the benefit of those who don't. If some men are entitled by right to the products of the work of others, it means that those others are deprived of rights and condemned to slave labor. Source: "The Ayn Rand Lexicon, " by Harry Binswanger, p.529 , Jan 1, 1998
    Quote Originally Posted by Rand
    Capitalism has created the highest standard of living ever known on earth. The evidence is incontrovertible. The contrast between west and east Berlin is the latest demonstration, like a laboratory experiment for all to see. Yet those who are loudest in proclaiming their desire to eliminate poverty are loudest in denouncing capitalism. Man's well being is not their goal.
    Sounds like someone I know.

    Perhaps you need to likewise define welfare. I would submit that form the Randian view, which you have quoted for capitaism, collective the welfare of man has risen to heights never before seen in human history as a direct result of capitalism. If you mean specifically taking from the rich and handing it.. even then you have more wealth form the rich to pillage. Either way it seems to all come back to "it's better with butter...err..capitalism".

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    Re: Is welfare capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mach View Post
    So welfare is not for the common good? Please elaborate, I would not have thought you'd hold that position!
    I have given the definition of "welfare" in posts #1 and #17.
    I don't mean "welfare" as "well-being", more like "public aid", provided by the (welfare) state.

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    Re: Is welfare capitalism?

    Some form of welfare is required to maintain capitalism to prevent the poor from rebelling against the great concentration of wealth among the elites that happens inevitably unless the capitalism is strongly regulated.

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    Re: Is welfare capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Canell View Post
    Is there any controversy between capitalism and welfare?
    Only in the minds of the most heartless and delusional of individuals.

  8. #28
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    Re: Is welfare capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kreton View Post
    I don't like the idea of welfare at a federal level. I think people in a community should support each other. But Americans are too self centered for that.
    I think the problem there generally lies in the fact that "community" has less and less of a meaning to people. I mean, how can you feel a sense of community to enact long-term plans when you expect to move inside of 10 years? How can you feel like you're a part of a community when you just moved there a couple of years ago?
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  9. #29
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    Re: Is welfare capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Canell View Post
    Yes but in order to give to John the state must take from Joe.
    There were no welfare benefits 100 years ago. Right?
    Not on a national level but that didn't stop local governments, including states, from enacting it.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

  10. #30
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    Re: Is welfare capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Canell View Post
    Welfare

    Is there any controversy between capitalism and welfare? Should it be eliminated?
    No and no - both are needed for the system to work properly.

    If you want to put this in strictly economic terms then welfare is the idle cost for unused machinery. Think of it as paying electricity to run a computer even though the computer is sitting idle. Unlike computers, however, people cannot be turned off and on without a high cost. If you turn people off they degrade. If not at least marginally maintained over the long term they become unusable. It takes years and years to manufacture replacements and they are expensive to produce. Keeping the machines idle (instead of turning them off) keeps them in relatively good condition at all times so they can be put to full use when needed.
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 04-05-13 at 08:15 PM.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

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