View Poll Results: Is welfare capitalism?

Voters
19. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes but it should go away

    0 0%
  • Yes, it's OK

    2 10.53%
  • No and it should go away

    9 47.37%
  • No but it's OK to stay

    7 36.84%
  • I don't know

    1 5.26%
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 30

Thread: Is welfare capitalism?

  1. #11
    Light△Bender

    grip's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    ☚ ☛
    Last Seen
    12-13-17 @ 02:42 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    17,224
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: Is welfare capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Canell View Post
    Yes, welfare is a government policy. The question is: should it exist?
    Charity is something different since average Joe doesn't get taxed about it but some people decide to give things away for free.
    That to me is like asking should the "Defense Department" exist. I think that Welfare could be reformed somewhat but it would be fairly nasty to defend our citizens against violence from outside sources but let the poorest among us starve and die on the streets.
    Einstein, "science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

  2. #12
    Banned
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    EUSSR
    Last Seen
    03-24-14 @ 01:43 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    3,851

    Re: Is welfare capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by grip View Post
    That to me is like asking should the "Defense Department" exist. I think that Welfare could be reformed somewhat but it would be fairly nasty to defend our citizens against violence from outside sources but let the poorest among us starve and die on the streets.
    Yes but in order to give to John the state must take from Joe.
    There were no welfare benefits 100 years ago. Right?

  3. #13
    Light△Bender

    grip's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    ☚ ☛
    Last Seen
    12-13-17 @ 02:42 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    17,224
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: Is welfare capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Canell View Post
    Yes but in order to give to John the state must take from Joe.
    There were no welfare benefits 100 years ago. Right?
    Before the Depression anti-poverty programs were primarily operated by private charities, churches and state or local governments.

    The United States has no national program of cash assistance for non-disabled poor individuals who are not raising children, except food stamps. What is your point that tax payer money shouldn't go to anyone poor? I don't agree with that but it's not my call. But I think they should reform many social programs. If it's a budget problem you're addressing, then I can think of many other areas to cut spending.
    Einstein, "science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

  4. #14
    Guru
    Cyrylek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Boston
    Last Seen
    02-05-17 @ 01:49 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    3,467

    Re: Is welfare capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Canell View Post
    Welfare

    Is there any controversy between capitalism and welfare? Should it be eliminated?
    Define "capitalism". Define "welfare".

    For me, "capitalism" - as opposed to "socialism" - is a free-market ideal. It is about the freedom of choice, not about the maximal profit regardless of circumstances. You be the judge: how often our economic reality is actually "capitalist", in this sense.

    "Welfare" is highly undesirable - in theory - the perverse incentives and unintended consequences are too many to mention - but! Is the (however clumsy and misguided in practice) desire to help the least fortunate something we have to focus on and militate against, as libertarians?

    God, no.

    We can double, triple our assistance to the poor (in a very different, intelligent way, please) - and still balance our budgets, and revive our economy, and shrink the damn bloody government, etc.

    Look at the pie chart of our federal expenses: the military and the entitlements - that's where the money is.
    Last edited by Cyrylek; 04-04-13 at 01:51 PM.

  5. #15
    Banned
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    EUSSR
    Last Seen
    03-24-14 @ 01:43 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    3,851

    Re: Is welfare capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by grip View Post
    What is your point that tax payer money shouldn't go to anyone poor?.
    Nor the rich.

  6. #16
    Devourer of Poor Children
    DrunkenAsparagus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    DC
    Last Seen
    01-20-16 @ 04:07 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    4,496

    Re: Is welfare capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrylek View Post
    Define "capitalism". Define "welfare".

    For me, "capitalism" - as opposed to "socialism" - is a free-market ideal. It is about the freedom of choice, not about the maximal profit regardless of circumstances. You be the judge: how often our economic reality is actually "capitalist", in this sense.

    "Welfare" is highly undesirable - in theory - the perverse incentives and unintended consequences are too many to mention - but! Is the (however clumsy and misguided in practice) desire to help the least fortunate something we have focus on and militate against, as libertarians?

    God, no.

    We can double, triple our assistance to the poor (in a very different, intelligent way, please) - and still balance our budgets, and revive our economy, and shrink the damn bloody government, etc.

    Look at the pie chart of our federal expenses: the military and the entitlements - that's where the money is.
    As a self-described libertarian I agree. Even Friedman, Hayek, and Mises all supported some type of social safety net. Granted, I think that public assistance should be delivered in a different form than it is now, but when you look at how much we're spending on helping less fortunate compared to everything else, it makes you realize that there's a lot that you can cut before you even get to actually helping the poor.
    "Doubleplusungood"

    George Orwell

  7. #17
    Banned
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    EUSSR
    Last Seen
    03-24-14 @ 01:43 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    3,851

    Re: Is welfare capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrylek View Post
    Define "capitalism". Define "welfare".
    OK.

    Capitalism is an economic system based on the private ownership of capital goods and the means of production...
    Welfare is the provision of a minimal level of well-being and social support for all citizens, sometimes referred to as public aid. In most developed countries, welfare is largely provided by the government, in addition to charities, informal social groups, religious groups, and inter-governmental organizations.

    The welfare state expands on this concept to include services such as universal healthcare.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrylek View Post
    Look at the pie chart of our federal expenses: the military and the entitlements - that's where the money is.
    Yes, that too.

  8. #18
    Guru
    Cyrylek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Boston
    Last Seen
    02-05-17 @ 01:49 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    3,467

    Re: Is welfare capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Canell View Post
    "Capitalism is an economic system based on the private ownership of capital goods and the means of production..."
    Which tells you approximately nothing about anything.

    Let's say, I have a cow (no pun intended); her udder is one of the "means of production". I had fed her, I had vaccinated her, I milk her every freaking early morning... - and then one day a tovarisch kommissar pops up at my door ( his loaded revolver conspicuously displayed), and tells me that I have to pay dearly for my cow being fatter, silkier and happier than any other cows in the village.

    Well, f... you very much. I'm on the next boat to America, Canada or Australia- if I still have THAT luxury...
    Last edited by Cyrylek; 04-04-13 at 02:22 PM.

  9. #19
    Banned
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    EUSSR
    Last Seen
    03-24-14 @ 01:43 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    3,851

    Re: Is welfare capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrylek View Post
    Which tells you approximately nothing about anything.
    OK, perhaps we should try this one: CAPITALISM: Capitalism is a social system based on the principle of INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS

  10. #20
    Sage
    Mach's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Texas
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 11:57 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Slightly Liberal
    Posts
    11,513

    Re: Is welfare capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Canell View Post
    Then it's answered right on that very link.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rand
    it represents the best way to achieve ‘the common good.’ It is true that capitalism does—if that catch-phrase has any meaning—but this is merely a secondary consequence.
    So in that remark the most effective "welfare" is a secondary consequence OF a successfully implemented capitalistic economy. Or another way to write, if welfare is an aspect of the best implementation of the common good, capitalism results in thhe best way to achieve it.

    Off the cuff I would think that's trivially true based on reality.

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •