View Poll Results: Is the right to bear arms a civil right?

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Thread: Is the right to bear arms a civil right?

  1. #71
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    Re: Is the right to bear arms a civil right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Muddy Creek View Post
    Nobody is in the militia. It was disband after we won the Revolutionary war.

    Wrong. The militia continued to exist long after that, and continues to exist today. A number of states, including mine, have a formal and officially recognized State Militia, seperate from the National Guard (which is a Federally instituted force).

    Also the Founders were quite clear on who was the militia.... when they said "militia" they meant CITIZENS.

    "I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them"
    George Mason
    Co-author of the Second Amendment
    during Virginia's Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    "A militia, when properly formed, are in fact the people themselves …"
    Richard Henry Lee
    writing in Letters from the Federal Farmer to the Republic, Letter XVIII, May, 1788.


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    "The people are not to be disarmed of their weapons. They are left in full posession of them."
    Zachariah Johnson
    Elliot's Debates, vol. 3 "The Debates in the Several State Conventions on the Adoption of the Federal Constitution."


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    "… the people are confirmed by the next article in their right to keep and bear their private arms"
    Philadelphia Federal Gazette
    June 18, 1789, Pg. 2, Col. 2
    Article on the Bill of Rights


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    "And that the said Constitution be never construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the Press, or the rights of Conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms; …"
    Samuel Adams
    quoted in the Philadelphia Independent Gazetteer, August 20, 1789, "Propositions submitted to the Convention of this State"

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  2. #72
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    Re: Is the right to bear arms a civil right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    We're already part of the unorganized militia. This is how we can be drafted, because we're already affiliated with the military by default...the state can just 'call us up'. They're not enslaving a free man, they're activating a militiaman. The very purpose of the Selective Service is to record exactly who is in the unorganized militia should they need to be activated.

    I've long been of the opinion that a 2-year term or service should be mandatory for everyone upon turning 18, because when you turn 18 you become part of the militia whether you like it or not. This is forced on you like taxes, so IMO just roll with it, use it to your advantage. Even if you choose not to continue to serve in the military, you are still in the militia and so you should have some base-level training to accompany it. You could be summarily deputized during a natural disaster before relief comes. You could be part of a neighborhood watch, etc. These civil duties would be greatly served by basic military training.

    Militias were called up to quell union riots in the steel industry (which is why the left doesn't like the 2A) and were called up in CA, OR, and WA during WW2.
    You sure have some mixed up ideas. UNLESS there's a draft, you're not going anywhere. That doesn't mean you're a militia.

    Your "militia" now is just a bunch of racists wanting control of the government. It's not part of our military at all.

    The truth behind America's 'civilian militias' - Telegraph

    The militias, which are dotted throughout the US and, according to recent figures, are growing rapidly in numbers, claim they are bulwarks against tyranny. The US Department of Homeland Security takes a dimmer view, warning of a ‘rise in Right-wing anti-government extremist activity’ as far back as April 2009 and a ‘phenomenon of violent radicalisation’.

    Indeed, according to the Southern Poverty Law Centre (SPLC), which tracks extremist groups, the US has seen a dramatic spike in attempted domestic terrorism ever since Barack Obama started his campaign for office, including: two skinhead plots to assassinate him; a plan to set off a dirty bomb packed with radioactive materials during the inauguration; and a lone assassin, Keith Luke, who began murdering black people in Massachusetts.

    Of course, militia activity is hardly new to the US. The very first article of the Constitution granted Congress the power to call on ‘the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions’ and the subsequent Militia Act of 1792 defined the militia as every able-bodied male citizen over 18 and under 45.

    It’s an act that has been embraced by a fair number of American citizens ever since, whether loners or disparate groups of armed, disgruntled civilians. In 1992, Randy Weaver, a former US Army Green Beret, moved himself and his family to an isolated cabin in Ruby Ridge, Idaho, to escape what they saw as a corrupt world. Rather than a peaceful nature-lover, officials claimed Weaver was a member of a race-hate group and he was charged with weapons violations. When he failed to appear in court, they stormed the cabin, resulting in the fatal shooting of Weaver’s wife, Vicki, and 14-year-old son, Sammy.
    Insane thugs. Just the kind that should NOT have military style weapons.
    Alex Carey:

    ... the 20th century has been characterized by three developments of great political importance: The growth of democracy, the growth of corporate power, and the growth of corporate propaganda as a means of protecting corporate power against democracy.

    Australian social scientist, quoted by Noam Chomsky in World Orders Old and New

  3. #73
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    Re: Is the right to bear arms a civil right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Wrong. The militia continued to exist long after that, and continues to exist today. A number of states, including mine, have a formal and officially recognized State Militia, seperate from the National Guard (which is a Federally instituted force).

    Also the Founders were quite clear on who was the militia.... when they said "militia" they meant CITIZENS.

    "I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them"
    George Mason
    Co-author of the Second Amendment
    during Virginia's Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    "A militia, when properly formed, are in fact the people themselves …"
    Richard Henry Lee
    writing in Letters from the Federal Farmer to the Republic, Letter XVIII, May, 1788.


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    "The people are not to be disarmed of their weapons. They are left in full posession of them."
    Zachariah Johnson
    Elliot's Debates, vol. 3 "The Debates in the Several State Conventions on the Adoption of the Federal Constitution."


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    "… the people are confirmed by the next article in their right to keep and bear their private arms"
    Philadelphia Federal Gazette
    June 18, 1789, Pg. 2, Col. 2
    Article on the Bill of Rights


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    "And that the said Constitution be never construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the Press, or the rights of Conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms; …"
    Samuel Adams
    quoted in the Philadelphia Independent Gazetteer, August 20, 1789, "Propositions submitted to the Convention of this State"

    With one big exception. TODAY"S militia are domestic terrorists whose activities are subversive and dangerous to our society.
    Alex Carey:

    ... the 20th century has been characterized by three developments of great political importance: The growth of democracy, the growth of corporate power, and the growth of corporate propaganda as a means of protecting corporate power against democracy.

    Australian social scientist, quoted by Noam Chomsky in World Orders Old and New

  4. #74
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    Re: Is the right to bear arms a civil right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Muddy Creek View Post
    Insane thugs. Just the kind that should NOT have military style weapons.

    Yes, the ATF/etc people who framed Randy Weaver and then killed his wife and son ARE insane thugs who should not have military weapons.


    Unfortunately, they work for the government.

    Fiddling While Rome Burns
    ISIS: Carthago Delenda Est
    "I used to roll the dice; see the fear in my enemies' eyes... listen as the crowd would sing, 'now the old king is dead, Long Live the King.'.."

  5. #75
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    Re: Is the right to bear arms a civil right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Muddy Creek View Post
    With one big exception. TODAY"S militia are domestic terrorists whose activities are subversive and dangerous to our society.

    You know nothing of which you speak. The fact that some groups abuse the term does not change the way the term is defined in the structure of our Constitution and rights.

    Fiddling While Rome Burns
    ISIS: Carthago Delenda Est
    "I used to roll the dice; see the fear in my enemies' eyes... listen as the crowd would sing, 'now the old king is dead, Long Live the King.'.."

  6. #76
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    Re: Is the right to bear arms a civil right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Yes, the ATF/etc people who framed Randy Weaver and then killed his wife and son ARE insane thugs who should not have military weapons.


    Unfortunately, they work for the government.

    OMG...yeah. The big bad militia dude was framed. That doesn't fly.
    Alex Carey:

    ... the 20th century has been characterized by three developments of great political importance: The growth of democracy, the growth of corporate power, and the growth of corporate propaganda as a means of protecting corporate power against democracy.

    Australian social scientist, quoted by Noam Chomsky in World Orders Old and New

  7. #77
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    Re: Is the right to bear arms a civil right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    I have no idea what you're talking about, and apparently neither do you.
    Black's Law, Fifth Edition:

    Assault
    Any willful attempt or threat to inflict bodily injury upon the person of another, when coupled with an apparent present ability to do so, and any intentional display of force such as would give the victim reason to fear or expect bodily harm, constitutes assault. An assault may be committed without actually touching, or striking, or doing bodily harm, to the person of another.

    You go kill someone for that ^ in Missouri and you'll most likely end up in jail.
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  8. #78
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    Re: Is the right to bear arms a civil right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Muddy Creek View Post
    OMG...yeah. The big bad militia dude was framed. That doesn't fly.

    In point of fact, Randy Weaver was pressured by the ATF to act as an undercover informant, and to make a deliberate effort on their behalf to sell illegal weapons to a skin-head-type group so the ATF could bust them. When Weaver decided the risk involved in doing this was more than he was prepared to put his family though, they retreated to their cabin, where they were needlessly assaulted by government agents who behaved in an appallingly jack-boot-thug manner resulting in the deaths of a child and an unarmed woman. Facts.


    I know it is hard, but try to keep up here.

    Fiddling While Rome Burns
    ISIS: Carthago Delenda Est
    "I used to roll the dice; see the fear in my enemies' eyes... listen as the crowd would sing, 'now the old king is dead, Long Live the King.'.."

  9. #79
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    Re: Is the right to bear arms a civil right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    You know nothing of which you speak. The fact that some groups abuse the term does not change the way the term is defined in the structure of our Constitution and rights.
    It does indeed. Unless you are a militia under the terms of the constitution, you are not entitled to guns.

    II. The English Background

    A. Common-Law Origins of the Citizen Militia.

    The citizen militia is one of the most ancient of Anglo-American institutions. Sir William Blackstone credited Alfred the Great with the development of the militia system, stating: "It seems universally agreed by historians, that King Alfred first settled a national militia in this kingdom, and by his prudent discipline made all the subjects of his dominion soldiers . . . ." [1] More recent historical research, however, has suggested that the origins of the early militia can be traced back at least to the seventh century and, in all likelihood, "the obligation of Englishmen to serve in the . . . peoples' army is older than our oldest records." [2] Clearly, the citizen militia, as an institution with a legal identity of its own, had existed for centuries prior to the Norman Conquest.

    [p.3] The Saxon militia, known as the fyrd, was a "general" militia composed of all able-bodied men. In times of emergency, it was called out only in districts actually threatened with attack. Service in the fyrd was usually of short duration and the participants legally were obligated to provide their own arms and provisions in accordance with their socioeconomic standings. The system was well suited for an island kingdom with a simple agrarian economy and no need to project military power externally. The success of the Norman Conquest usually is attributed to a lack of Saxon leadership after the death of Harold, rather than any shortcoming with respect to the fyrd system. [3]

    The only "professional armies" during the Saxon era were a few contingents of housecarls attached directly to the households of the King and the great Earls. These contingents were small in number because they were expensive to maintain. For the battle of Hastings, Harold could muster a force of only about 2200 housecarls, his own double force of about 2000 as King and Earl of Wessex, and several hundred more from his brothers Gyrth and Leofwine, whose earldoms adjoined his own. This was at a time when the total fyrd for all of England numbered around 50,000. [4] In earlier times, these contingents were even smaller. In the seventh century, for instance, the Dooms of Ine defined a group of seven men or less as "thieves," a group of seven to thirty-five men as "a band," and a group of more than thirty-five men as "an army." [5]
    Wouldn't you say that that was what the founding fathers had in mind?

    n examining the subject of the militia and the Constitution, a number of important issues immediately come to mind--the "federalism" issue of state versus national control of the militia, the "checks and balances" issue of presidential versus congressional control of the national military establishment, the issue of the political compromises reached in an effort to overcome the inherent weaknesses of the Articles of Confederation, and the paramount issue of civilian control over the military. To the Framers of the Constitution, the militia issue of perhaps the greatest significance, however, was the more fundamental question of the nature of the militia as a legal and political institution. Although less obvious to us today, that issue went to the very essence of the military's role in the new democratic republic and figured prominently in the debate over the ratification of the Constitution.

    Nowhere in the Constitution is the term "militia" actually defined. Yet, when the Framers of the Constitution referred to the militia in the text of the document and the ratification debates, they had very definite ideas of what they meant. Their concept of the militia as a legal and political institution was a product of English heritage, as it was modified by the uniqueness of the American experience. It differed radically [p.2] from our own concept. Specifically, what we think of today as the militia--that is, the National Guard--would have been viewed as a "standing army" by political leaders of the Revolutionary era.
    So, looking at the "intention" of the founding fathers as the right so loves to do, the Intention was a specific group of fighters.
    Alex Carey:

    ... the 20th century has been characterized by three developments of great political importance: The growth of democracy, the growth of corporate power, and the growth of corporate propaganda as a means of protecting corporate power against democracy.

    Australian social scientist, quoted by Noam Chomsky in World Orders Old and New

  10. #80
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    Re: Is the right to bear arms a civil right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Muddy Creek View Post
    It does indeed. Unless you are a militia under the terms of the constitution, you are not entitled to guns.



    Wouldn't you say that that was what the founding fathers had in mind?



    So, looking at the "intention" of the founding fathers as the right so loves to do, the Intention was a specific group of fighters.



    The Founders already told you, in their own words, what they intended in the quotes I gave you.... but you ignored them, just like you ignore everything that doesn't fit your narrow agenda.

    Fail again...

    Fiddling While Rome Burns
    ISIS: Carthago Delenda Est
    "I used to roll the dice; see the fear in my enemies' eyes... listen as the crowd would sing, 'now the old king is dead, Long Live the King.'.."

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