View Poll Results: Is the right to bear arms a civil right?

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    61 65.59%
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Thread: Is the right to bear arms a civil right?

  1. #11
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    Re: Is the right to bear arms a civil right?

    Quote Originally Posted by dnsmith View Post
    I would go a little further. The right to keep and bear arms transcends citizenship; it is an inherent right of humanity.
    So you also think the 2nd should be changed to "The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." Correct?

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    Re: Is the right to bear arms a civil right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    It does say "...the right of the people.."

    If it meant what you suggest it would have said "...the right of the militia.."
    Nope. The milita has no right, just a function. It's governance, i.e. it's leadership, has the authority over the milita and to use and direct it.

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    Re: Is the right to bear arms a civil right?

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    I'm not sure I would use "civil right." It is a constitutional right and I believe the right to self defense of one's home, family, self, neighbors, communty and country are inherent human and individual rights. - which of course includes the tools necessary to do so.
    The right to life is unquestionably a civil right. Without it, one cannot be considered "free" in any meaningful sense. It then logically follows that the right of self-defense is directly tied to the right to life. In order to defend oneself, you must be allowed to use those tools that will stop attacks on the self. Therefore, the right to bear arms is inextricably tied to the right to life.
    The morality of abortion is not a religious belief, any more than the morality of slavery, apartheid, rape, larceny, murder or arson is a religious belief. These are norms of the natural law of mankind and can be legislated even in a completely religionless society.

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    Re: Is the right to bear arms a civil right?

    Quote Originally Posted by OhIsee.Then View Post
    So you also think the 2nd should be changed to "The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." Correct?
    That's already in the 2nd Amendment...

    Quote Originally Posted by OhIsee.Then View Post
    Nope. The milita has no right, just a function. It's governance, i.e. it's leadership, has the authority over the milita and to use and direct it.
    Source for that claim? So long as the people have rights, since the militia is the people, the militia too has said rights.
    Haymarket's "support" of the 2nd Amendment, a right he believes we never had.
    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    no. You cannot lose rights you do not have in the first place. There is no such thing as the right to have any weapon of your choice regardless of any other consideration. It simply does not exist.

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    Re: Is the right to bear arms a civil right?

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    I'm not sure I would use "civil right." It is a constitutional right and I believe the right to self defense of one's home, family, self, neighbors, communty and country are inherent human and individual rights. - which of course includes the tools necessary to do so.
    So you are giving everyone if in their judgement they need a tank or a premptive strike they should be able to do it?

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    Re: Is the right to bear arms a civil right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lachean View Post
    That's already in the 2nd Amendment....
    So an edit the just omits words is OK?



    Quote Originally Posted by Lachean View Post
    Source for that claim? So long as the people have rights, since the militia is the people, the militia too has said rights.
    From wiki: A militia (pron.: /mɨˈlɪʃə/),[1] generally refers to an army or other fighting force that is composed of non-professional fighters; citizens of a nation or subjects of a state or government that can be called upon to enter a combat situation, as opposed to a professional force of regular soldiers or, historically, members of the fighting nobility.

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    Re: Is the right to bear arms a civil right?

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    Yes. Like all other individual rights they end where another's rights begin. The right to keep and bear arms is not a right to use that gun to commit crime. What seems to be happening is that the existance of "access to" a tool (gun) is somehow being equated to an "enabling" factor in crime. All males tend to carry a concealed "rape tool", yet rape is never blamed upon that "tool possession", rape is properly seen as simply a violent behavior problem. With guns, since many feel that they can be "controlled" (like recreational drugs?) that is seen as the "common sense" solution even though, while the number of guns has increased, gun crime has decreased steadily since 1993.
    Oh contraire- many social conservatives have blamed porn, rock and roll, lowered age of drinking, marijuana for rape.

    Reefer Madness showed a decent young man turned bug-eyed rapist, a sweet girl turned slattern

    The Meese Commission and porn?

    Some 'conservatives' want to blame video games for firearm violence... Wayne LaPierre said so on dec 21st. (nevermind the NRA has released a first person shooter game for the iphones)

    So you have to use a very narrow idea of what a tool is...IE, no educational tools, no duct tape or weapon, just penis for rape and no training films, violent movies or vid games, just firearm for shootings.

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    Re: Is the right to bear arms a civil right?

    Quote Originally Posted by OhIsee.Then View Post
    So an edit the just omits words is OK?
    What? There is no need to remove the prefatory clause regarding the militia so long as the people understand the operative clause.

    Quote Originally Posted by OhIsee.Then View Post
    From wiki: A militia (pron.: /mɨˈlɪʃə/),[1] generally refers to an army or other fighting force that is composed of non-professional fighters; citizens of a nation or subjects of a state or government that can be called upon to enter a combat situation, as opposed to a professional force of regular soldiers or, historically, members of the fighting nobility.
    This doesn't in any way support your claim that "The milita has no right, just a function. It's governance, i.e. it's leadership, has the authority over the milita and to use and direct it."

    You might also want to consider legal definitions rather than wikipedia, just a thought.
    Haymarket's "support" of the 2nd Amendment, a right he believes we never had.
    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    no. You cannot lose rights you do not have in the first place. There is no such thing as the right to have any weapon of your choice regardless of any other consideration. It simply does not exist.

  9. #19
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    Re: Is the right to bear arms a civil right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    It does say "...the right of the people.."

    If it meant what you suggest it would have said "...the right of the militia.."
    It is a classic example of a quote being taken out of context.
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    Re: Is the right to bear arms a civil right?

    Quote Originally Posted by OhIsee.Then View Post
    So you also think the 2nd should be changed to "The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." Correct?
    I think the text is already quite clear. Some people are willing to distort the interpretation to fit their ideology no matter how its written.
    "Men did not make the earth ... it is the value of the improvement only, and not the earth itself, that is individual property... Every proprietor owes to the community a ground rent for the land which he holds." -- Thomas Paine, Agrarian Justice
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