View Poll Results: If SSM is Legalized, Should Churches be "Forced" to Perform Gay Marriages?

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    3 2.22%
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    131 97.04%
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Thread: If SSM is Legalized, Should Churches be "Forced" to Perform Gay Marriages?

  1. #91
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    Re: If SSM is Legalized, Should Churches be "Forced" to Perform Gay Marriages?

    Quote Originally Posted by AGENT J View Post
    they can try all they want the constitution will stop them every time, they are fighting a losing, selfish, hypocritical battle
    Yes, they are. It's similar to the losing battle they once fought to stop interracial marriage, something bigots also considered unnatural. I truly believe they see the handwriting on the wall and know that it's only a matter of time before gays have full marriage rights in all states. They see that happening and feel threatened by it. How long it will take, I'm honestly not sure. If it goes state by state, it may take something like 20 years, with the blue states giving them the rights first, followed by the less-right wing red states and finally the reddest states begrudgingly coming on board. Alternatively, a Supreme Court ruling could order all the states to accept gay marriage. If that's the case, it could happen quickly, given that the court is due to rule on Prop 8 and DOMA soon. I think it's a little unlikely that their ruling will be so sweeping that it does that, but it's possible. I think it's more likely that they just throw out Prop 8 and DOMA and keep it a states rights issue, in which case each state will offer same sex marriage rights one by one over a longer period of time.

  2. #92
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    Re: If SSM is Legalized, Should Churches be "Forced" to Perform Gay Marriages?

    Quote Originally Posted by Luna Tick View Post
    Yes, they are. It's similar to the losing battle they once fought to stop interracial marriage, something bigots also considered unnatural. I truly believe they see the handwriting on the wall and know that it's only a matter of time before gays have full marriage rights in all states. They see that happening and feel threatened by it. How long it will take, I'm honestly not sure. If it goes state by state, it may take something like 20 years, with the blue states giving them the rights first, followed by the less-right wing red states and finally the reddest states begrudgingly coming on board. Alternatively, a Supreme Court ruling could order all the states to accept gay marriage. If that's the case, it could happen quickly, given that the court is due to rule on Prop 8 and DOMA soon. I think it's a little unlikely that their ruling will be so sweeping that it does that, but it's possible. I think it's more likely that they just throw out Prop 8 and DOMA and keep it a states rights issue, in which case each state will offer same sex marriage rights one by one over a longer period of time.
    I give it 10 years max
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  3. #93
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    Re: If SSM is Legalized, Should Churches be "Forced" to Perform Gay Marriages?

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    I doubt the churches are unhappy with the legal term. But by your reasoning, anyone who is unhappy can simply come up with a different term for it.
    Which is fine with me and people are free to ignore the churches entirely. However, they do not get to lay claim to a legal term that is already in use and insist that the state change their terminology.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  4. #94
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    Re: If SSM is Legalized, Should Churches be "Forced" to Perform Gay Marriages?

    Quote Originally Posted by Luna Tick View Post
    I agree with that. That was my idea behind making the state-based union called a "civil union" whether the couples are gay or straight and then calling it a "marriage" if a religious institution has done a ceremony -- also regardless of whether the couple is gay or straight.
    Sorry, the state is already using that term, it's not going to change. If the churches want to find a different term, that's up to them, they cannot impose that decision on others.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  5. #95
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    Re: If SSM is Legalized, Should Churches be "Forced" to Perform Gay Marriages?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    However, they do not get to lay claim to a legal term that is already in use and insist that the state change their terminology.
    Some would argue that that's what many advocates for gay marriage are doing...

  6. #96
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    Re: If SSM is Legalized, Should Churches be "Forced" to Perform Gay Marriages?

    Quote Originally Posted by X Factor View Post
    Don't confuse this with a similar poll (that gave me the idea for this one). I'm not asking if you think churches will be forced to perform gay marriages, I'm asking for your honest opinion if you believe they should be forced to do it.


    By forced, I mean anything that the govt could use to penalize churches for failing to performing the ceremonies, including removing tax exempt status if they don't, etc.
    Courthouses yes, churches no. It's key to remember that marriage as a legal and civil institution is separate from marriage as a religious institution.
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    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

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  7. #97
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    Re: If SSM is Legalized, Should Churches be "Forced" to Perform Gay Marriages?

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    Some would argue that that's what many advocates for gay marriage are doing...
    Hardly. There's already a perfectly acceptable word in use, we've established that "separate but equal" is an unacceptable concept in this country, therefore they ought to use the word we already have to refer to an equivalent thing.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  8. #98
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    Re: If SSM is Legalized, Should Churches be "Forced" to Perform Gay Marriages?

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    Courthouses yes, churches no. It's key to remember that marriage as a legal and civil institution is separate from marriage as a religious institution.
    It's key to remember that marriage as a legal and civil institution is the only thing that means a damn thing. Marriage as a religious institution is about as important as a sweet 16 party.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  9. #99
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    Re: If SSM is Legalized, Should Churches be "Forced" to Perform Gay Marriages?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    It's key to remember that marriage as a legal and civil institution is the only thing that means a damn thing. Marriage as a religious institution is about as important as a sweet 16 party.
    But ordained ministers performing a marriage ceremony are from a private institution rather than civil servants.
    Einstein, "science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

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    Re: If SSM is Legalized, Should Churches be "Forced" to Perform Gay Marriages?

    Quote Originally Posted by grip View Post
    But ordained ministers performing a marriage ceremony are from a private institution rather than civil servants.
    So? They're leeches on society who ought to go get productive jobs.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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