Page 27 of 27 FirstFirst ... 17252627
Results 261 to 269 of 269

Thread: Are public schools socialism?

  1. #261
    Sage
    Slyfox696's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Last Seen
    Today @ 03:04 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    6,388

    Re: Are public schools socialism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    you mean removing tenure? If so, that is a very strange way to characterize it
    Unfortunately, it's a very apt way to characterize it. Small town politics are terrible. A teacher should be protected from losing their job because they gave Board Member #4's best friend's child a bad grade or didn't play them in the football game.

    What most people don't understand about tenure is that tenure doesn't protect a teacher from being removed if they perform poorly. A tenured teacher can still be fired, however they cannot be fired "just because" like untenured teachers can.

  2. #262
    King Conspiratard
    Dr. Chuckles's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Last Seen
    02-13-14 @ 02:04 PM
    Lean
    Slightly Conservative
    Posts
    12,895

    Re: Are public schools socialism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slyfox696 View Post
    Unfortunately, it's a very apt way to characterize it.

    not at all. Any argument you can make for tenure for teachers can be equally applied to any other job, and ignores the clear detrimental effects it would have for any endevor

    Small town politics are terrible. A teacher should be protected from losing their job because they gave Board Member #4's best friend's child a bad grade or didn't play them in the football game.
    how does addressing the above require tenure? It seems unions are able to adequately account for arbitrary firing in any other industry, absent tenure

    What most people don't understand about tenure is that tenure doesn't protect a teacher from being removed if they perform poorly.
    That might not be the intention, but there are instances where people can cite tenor as preventing the termination of a poor performing teacher

  3. #263
    Sage
    MoSurveyor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Last Seen
    10-01-16 @ 07:24 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    9,980

    Re: Are public schools socialism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    not at all. Any argument you can make for tenure for teachers can be equally applied to any other job, and ignores the clear detrimental effects it would have for any endevor

    how does addressing the above require tenure? It seems unions are able to adequately account for arbitrary firing in any other industry, absent tenure

    That might not be the intention, but there are instances where people can cite tenor as preventing the termination of a poor performing teacher
    If that's the case then the admin has very poor recording habits and employment practices. If a teacher isn't a good performer in the first place they wouldn't be tenured in the second. My company had pretty strict HR rules so you had to actually document poor performance to fire someone - past the first six months. During the first six months if they even looked at you funny you could show them the door. Consequently, we were very careful about the people we kept. I don't see where schools, in general, would be any different - and it takes much longer than six months to make tenure. If a teacher is bad they'll never last to make tenure.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

  4. #264
    King Conspiratard
    Dr. Chuckles's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Last Seen
    02-13-14 @ 02:04 PM
    Lean
    Slightly Conservative
    Posts
    12,895

    Re: Are public schools socialism?

    [QUOTE=MoSurveyor;1061672933]My company had pretty strict HR rules so you had to actually document poor performance to fire someone - past the first six months. [/ quote]

    absent a tenure system, right?

    During the first six months if they even looked at you funny you could show them the door. Consequently, we were very careful about the people we kept. I don't see where schools, in general, would be any different - and it takes much longer than six months to make tenure. If a teacher is bad they'll never last to make tenure.
    Joel Klein vs. New York City teachers : The New Yorker

    you might find this interesting

  5. #265
    Sage
    Slyfox696's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Last Seen
    Today @ 03:04 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    6,388

    Re: Are public schools socialism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    not at all.
    Sure it is. The whole idea behind removing tenure is to make it easier to fire teachers. That's the point of the law.

    how does addressing the above require tenure?
    Tenure helps protect against this. It requires giving teachers due process and the school having to show good cause for letting a teacher go.

    It seems unions are able to adequately account for arbitrary firing in any other industry, absent tenure
    I can't speak on unions in other industries, I can only speak on how things work in my state, which does not have a teacher's union.

    That might not be the intention, but there are instances where people can cite tenor as preventing the termination of a poor performing teacher
    They can cite it all they want, it doesn't make it any less true (again, in my state). Tenure is not protection from being a bad teacher or doing bad things. Tenure is protection of providing the teacher a fair process before dismissal. Those who say that being tenured makes a teacher impossible to fire is simply wrong (in my state, at least).

  6. #266
    King Conspiratard
    Dr. Chuckles's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Last Seen
    02-13-14 @ 02:04 PM
    Lean
    Slightly Conservative
    Posts
    12,895

    Re: Are public schools socialism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slyfox696 View Post
    Sure it is. The whole idea behind removing tenure is to make it easier to fire teachers. That's the point of the law.
    That isn't what you wrote though. You wrote " legislators in Missouri are trying to find ways to allow good teachers to be removed from their position based upon small town politics". And every supporter I know of ended tenure does so based on the notion that it is extremely problematic removing poor performing teachers within the current system

  7. #267
    Sage
    Slyfox696's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Last Seen
    Today @ 03:04 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    6,388

    Re: Are public schools socialism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    That isn't what you wrote though. You wrote " legislators in Missouri are trying to find ways to allow good teachers to be removed from their position based upon small town politics".

    And every supporter I know of ended tenure does so based on the notion that it is extremely problematic removing poor performing teachers within the current system
    But tenure doesn't protect poor performing teachers, those teachers can already be removed. Removing tenure just means the school doesn't have to worry about justifying it, which then leads to small town politics like I mentioned.

    Right now, tenure protects teachers from this kind of abuse by the local school boards. Tenure does not protect teacher who perform poorly from being fired. So removing tenure doesn't change the fact teachers can be fired, it just changes how.

    Like I said, it's a fairly accurate description.

  8. #268
    Sage
    MoSurveyor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Last Seen
    10-01-16 @ 07:24 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    9,980

    Re: Are public schools socialism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    absent a tenure system, right?
    It isn't any different from one. Firing someone was difficult, to say the least, without proper documentation of their poor performance. Many monster companies work that way. Sometimes there are unavoidable and extreme personality conflicts, which good HR policy limits to a great extent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    So they have 600+ teachers in limbo out of 75,000 - less than 1%? I don't really see that as a huge issue, though I'm sure they could improve on even that situation with just a little tweaking. Businesses aren't any better. In fact, they're probably worse. In other jobs I've seen slackers that do nothing but kiss the bosses ass all day. Yeah, that's a good criteria for keeping someone working. :-/
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 04-09-13 at 06:04 PM.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

  9. #269
    Sage
    MoSurveyor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Last Seen
    10-01-16 @ 07:24 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    9,980

    Re: Are public schools socialism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    That isn't what you wrote though. You wrote " legislators in Missouri are trying to find ways to allow good teachers to be removed from their position based upon small town politics". And every supporter I know of ended tenure does so based on the notion that it is extremely problematic removing poor performing teachers within the current system
    If they're that poorly performing they should have never made it to tenure.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

Page 27 of 27 FirstFirst ... 17252627

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •