View Poll Results: Could you accept no government recognized marriages as a compromise?

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  • I oppose SSM but could accept no government recognized marriage as a compromise.

    6 7.59%
  • I support SSM but could accept no government reconized marriage as a compromise

    24 30.38%
  • I oppose SSM It's a function of government to recognize legitimate marriages. No compromise.

    7 8.86%
  • I support SSM. It's a function of government to recognize legitimate marriages. No compromise.

    42 53.16%
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Thread: Same sex marriage compromise

  1. #71
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    Re: Same sex marriage compromise

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    Sure, have a legal contract. Just stop making it contingent on a romantic relationship and whether the government thinks yours is good enough.
    this new contract or set of contracts how do we make them as binding as marriage was is?
    how many years would it take?
    would it ever be?

    i ask this because the main reason civil unions and domestic partnerships are crap is because if one is intellectually honest thay arent a compromise at all.

    and its because they arent equal in rights or benefits nor does the law find them to be as concrete or as binding.

    examples, people have had civil unions and domestic partnerships and had their rights to kids, property, money etc over turned by family at a much more successful right than if one was married.
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  2. #72
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    Re: Same sex marriage compromise

    Quote Originally Posted by AGENT J View Post
    this new contract or set of contracts how do we make them as binding as marriage was is?
    how many years would it take?
    would it ever be?

    i ask this because the main reason civil unions and domestic partnerships are crap is because if one is intellectually honest thay arent a compromise at all.

    and its because they arent equal in rights or benefits nor does the law find them to be as concrete or as binding.

    examples, people have had civil unions and domestic partnerships and had their rights to kids, property, money etc over turned by family at a much more successful right than if one was married.
    I'm not sure what you're asking. They're as binding as any contract, and could be nullified under the same rules.

    Just make it harder (or damn near impossible, preferably) for anyone to over-turn the rights that the people involved have agreed upon.

    Take marriage, remove it from romantic context, and make it easier to design to your needs. That's it. That's all I'm proposing.

  3. #73
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    Re: Same sex marriage compromise

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    So why is that the governments concern? Everything these two parties are fighting over the state can protect without having to involve themselves in their dispute. If the two parties ever come to terms then at the point the state can deal with property claims. I don't see the problem.
    How do they come to terms? Via lawyers and courts. Judges can block block the sale of property. Freeze liquid assets and prevent a parent from fleeing with children. All of that comes before terms are agreed to.

    Are you saying, though, that contracts aren't necessary to protect parties from damage? That is the point I addressed in the quoted response.

  4. #74
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    Re: Same sex marriage compromise

    There is already a compromise in place - civil unions. The compromise was struck and now one of the parties wants to renegotiate for the whole enchillada. Modius operandi for the gay movement. Compromise more and they'll be back at the table asking for more before the ink is dry.

  5. #75
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    Re: Same sex marriage compromise

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    1.)I'm not sure what you're asking. They're as binding as any contract, and could be nullified under the same rules.

    2.)Just make it harder (or damn near impossible, preferably) for anyone to over-turn the rights that the people involved have agreed upon.

    3.)Take marriage, remove it from romantic context, and make it easier to design to your needs. That's it. That's all I'm proposing.
    1.) and yet when put to the test marriage was more binding than anything and civil unions and domestic partnerships failed this test.
    2.) well this is what im asking, nothing as been able to do this like marriage has so why do you think this new system that would could do it?
    3.) "rermove the romantic context" we can do that now and people do already
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    Re: Same sex marriage compromise

    Quote Originally Posted by clownboy View Post
    There is already a compromise in place - civil unions. The compromise was struck and now one of the parties wants to renegotiate for the whole enchillada. Modius operandi for the gay movement. Compromise more and they'll be back at the table asking for more before the ink is dry.
    that wasnt a compromise because it wasnt equal

    it factually doesnt grant as many rights and protections
    it wasnt as binding
    and even if it was equal, equal but the same is still discrimination
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  7. #77
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    Re: Same sex marriage compromise

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I would support the abolition of the Marriage License. But so long as the Marriage License exists as it does, a government recognized and issued contract, they cannot discriminate against same sex couples wishing to engage in that contract.
    Devil's advocate, for lack of a better phrase. How should the government treat:

    - Couples who wish to marry but have the same parents or are an uncle and an adult niece.
    - Couples who wish to marry but barely know each other if at all but intend to get to know each other very well once the other one gets here from Thailand.
    - Couples who wish to marry but one is already married to somebody else.

    I'm honestly not trying to be unkind. Just trying to find consistency in the argument that the government has no place applying an outdated moral code in the view of some to marriage when their job is to treat all with equality and offer all equal access to the benefits of marriage without prejudice.

    As an FYI: I'm not exactly comfortable myself with government being the arbitrator of morality. Although I support morality, what if the government decides at some point something is virtuous with which I disagree and has the power of force to establish its will on those who disagree?
    Last edited by Smeagol; 03-26-13 at 07:38 PM.
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    Re: Same sex marriage compromise

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    What comes immediately to mind is some tax rights (some of which I don't feel should exist). Also co-parenting rights. Some people parent with a non-romantic partner (and rarity is not a good argument against legality).

    Also, while it's *possible* to designate a lot of these rights, it is sometimes time-consuming and expensive when it doesn't need to be.

    What parts of a marriage contract can be altered by pre-nup varies by state, but most won't let you change whatever you want. Even if they did, though, it's still expensive and time-consuming.



    A spouse has a right to whatever they agree on. Like I said, I'm not out to take anything from anyone. I'm out to allow everyone to have equal and un-coerced access to their rights.

    I don't understand why it's so important to you to keep it as an institution that applies only to romantic relationships of the type you approve.
    Which tax rights? I can't address what you aren't saying. There is a marriage tax "penalty" as well. A couple is taxed at a higher rate than a two single people.

    As to co-parenting, is that something that cannot be obtained? How about adoption?

    Which of them is time consuming? A will? It is for married couples too. Again, please be specific.

    Ok, if they agree one should have the right to cut out the other from their 401k, they can do that. Just with approval of spouse and all of that goes away if they remain single. It's right there on the form, "Who do you designate as beneficiary of this account upon death?". Easy.

    I have agreed, designating legal rights shouldn't be so difficult or expensive. Though I sure would like to have a laundry list of what you are referring to.

    Why is it so important to you to abolish an institution you will, by your own declaration, never partake in? You want one or more other people you are not related to, to have rights over your finances and life (I'm assuming because you haven't specified what applies to you). I think those are pretty important designations and so there are hoops, but I agree, they shouldn't be impediments.

  9. #79
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    Re: Same sex marriage compromise

    Quote Originally Posted by Smeagol View Post
    Devil's advocate, for lack of a better phrase. How should the government treat:

    - Couples who wish to marry but have the same parents or are and uncle an an adult niece.
    - Couples who wish to marry but barely know each other if at all but intend to get to know each other very well once the other one gets here from Thailand.
    - Couples who wish to marry but one is already married to somebody else.

    I'm honestly not trying to be unkind. Just trying to find consistency in the argument that the government has no place applying an outdated moral code in the view of some to marriage when their job is to treat all with equality and offer all equal access to the benefits of marriage without prejudice.

    As an FYI: I'm not exactly comfortable myself with government being the arbitrator or morality. Although I support morality, what if the government decides at some point something is virtuous with which I disagree and has the power of force to establish its will on those who disagree?
    I don't understand your point here. What does any of that have to do with what I said? A brother and sister want to get married? Don't give a ****. People who don't know each other want to get married? Don't give a ****. Cheating? Polygamy? Don't give a ****. Though there are logical arguments against people of very close relation getting it on given the understanding of science and genetics. And there's arguments against polygamy given that almost every instance of polygamous society in the modern world has been one built on oppression, sexism, subjugation, and exile. Also Utah wasn't allowed into the Republic till it denounced polygamy; so there's precedent for that one.

    But none of this would matter if there were no marriage license. Think the Founders had to ask government's permission to be married? Think again.
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  10. #80
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    Re: Same sex marriage compromise

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    But it's unnecessarily complicated and expensive to do so in a lot of cases, and there's no reason it should be.
    But that same complication would happen without the catch all for marriage. Only with the legal status of marriage, that cost and complication can be skipped. I don't disagree that there can be all sorts of alternatives to marriage, and that they should be as simple and inexpensive as possible, and that everyone should have access to those alternatives, but it seems that doing away with marriage wouldn't improve anything.
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