View Poll Results: Could you accept no government recognized marriages as a compromise?

Voters
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  • I oppose SSM but could accept no government recognized marriage as a compromise.

    6 7.59%
  • I support SSM but could accept no government reconized marriage as a compromise

    24 30.38%
  • I oppose SSM It's a function of government to recognize legitimate marriages. No compromise.

    7 8.86%
  • I support SSM. It's a function of government to recognize legitimate marriages. No compromise.

    42 53.16%
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Thread: Same sex marriage compromise

  1. #481
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    Re: Same sex marriage compromise

    Quote Originally Posted by shrubnose View Post
    How many libertarians don't know (In their mind.) that it's everyone's God-given right to exclude all Black people from their restaurants? (Not because they're prejudiced, but strictly for property rights, of course.)
    Let's make this easy. There is no evidence for any gods so let's take that right off the table. And yes, lots of libertarians are completely alright with personal racism, sexism, discrimination, etc. Personally, I don't care who you hate, I just care that you're not allowed to openly act on that hatred. I don't go in for mindcrime, that's a liberal thing.

    When they manage to rewrite the U.S. Constitution and make that legal, I'll start paying a little attention to that minority group.
    The problem is, I don't think it's possible in today's political climate to make a single change to the Constitution, especially since so many people treat it like a holy document that can never be changed under any circumstances. I think that while it was designed to be a living document, it keeled over a long time ago.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  2. #482
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    Re: Same sex marriage compromise

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    The problem is, this isn't a premise, it deals with reality. There simply is no evidence that rights exist or operate the way that many libertarians wish they did. It's just a bunch of philosophical masturbation, not borne out by facts or logic, only by wishful thinking and faith. The question is, where did these "rights" come from, what guarantees them and how have you worked out exactly what these rights are, using only evidence and reason? It's something that I've yet to see a single libertarian be able to answer logically.
    It's a premise and a perception. Unless you want to call out the founding fathers on the same premise I share which then would say to me that you also question the premise the foundation the constitution was written upon. As for right not working the way I am touting then at this point gays don't have a right to marry and are trying to create that right. But the way the liberals are saying it they are being denied a right they currently have. Liberals, libertarians, and conservatives all carry on about what rights they have, so this isn't just a libertarian issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by shrubnose View Post
    How many libertarians don't know (In their mind.) that it's everyone's God-given right to exclude all Black people from their restaurants? (Not because they're prejudiced, but strictly for property rights, of course.
    Not all libertarians believe in God given rights. The Wiccan libertarians believe in Goddess given rights and the atheist libertarians believe in natural rights. Religion is irrelative to this. Believing in the freedom to discriminate does not automatically equate to the desire or practice of discrimination. It is no different from believing in the right to free speech even if that speech is undesirable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Let's make this easy. There is no evidence for any gods so let's take that right off the table. And yes, lots of libertarians are completely alright with personal racism, sexism, discrimination, etc. Personally, I don't care who you hate, I just care that you're not allowed to openly act on that hatred. I don't go in for mindcrime, that's a liberal thing.
    There is a difference between being alright with something and being willing to tolerate it because you value freedom over your personal beliefs, likes and dislikes. We have freedom of speech. One can say all kinds of hateful things about whatever race. That is as much openly acting on a hatred as trying to cause one physical harm. Yet that is a constitutionally guaranteed freedom. Libertarians simply believe that some things should be changed by social pressure and not by force of law to remove freedoms.

  3. #483
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    Re: Same sex marriage compromise

    Quote Originally Posted by maquiscat View Post
    It's a premise and a perception. Unless you want to call out the founding fathers on the same premise I share which then would say to me that you also question the premise the foundation the constitution was written upon. As for right not working the way I am touting then at this point gays don't have a right to marry and are trying to create that right. But the way the liberals are saying it they are being denied a right they currently have. Liberals, libertarians, and conservatives all carry on about what rights they have, so this isn't just a libertarian issue.
    Absolutely I do, the founding fathers were just men, they had their biases and their beliefs and made claims based on them. That doesn't make those claims true. And while you are right that people do carry on about what rights they have, they have to have a logical position to start from. The Constitution lays out some rights that society had granted to the people who were a part of that society. That's where the rights came from. To say that it was just spelling out rights that existed elsewhere is absurd unless you can actually demonstrate where those rights existed prior to the society that granted them. While I don't want to speak for you, I've run into lots of libertarians who simply want these rights to exist but they can't justify them rationally outside of a social context, therefore they basically make them magic. They're just there! Unfortunately, that just makes no rational sense.

    There is a difference between being alright with something and being willing to tolerate it because you value freedom over your personal beliefs, likes and dislikes. We have freedom of speech. One can say all kinds of hateful things about whatever race. That is as much openly acting on a hatred as trying to cause one physical harm. Yet that is a constitutionally guaranteed freedom. Libertarians simply believe that some things should be changed by social pressure and not by force of law to remove freedoms.
    But the law is a form of social pressure, the people elect people to represent their wishes and desires and codify them into law. That's the one thing that libertarians don't seem to be able to grasp. The government isn't an alien entity imposed on us from above, it's the legislative arm of society! It is the way it is because society wants it that way!
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  4. #484
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    Re: Same sex marriage compromise

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    But the law is a form of social pressure, the people elect people to represent their wishes and desires and codify them into law. That's the one thing that libertarians don't seem to be able to grasp. The government isn't an alien entity imposed on us from above, it's the legislative arm of society! It is the way it is because society wants it that way!



    Libertarians are not all racists, but they advocate laws that make life better for racists and bigots.

    I doubt that libertarians will ever control the U.S. government.




    "Tolerance is giving to every other human being every right that you claim for yourself." ~ Robert Green Ingersoll

  5. #485
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    Re: Same sex marriage compromise

    Quote Originally Posted by Smeagol View Post
    The US Supreme Court is presently considering a ruling that could lift opposite gender requirements for marriage in the US. Most people have firm opinions on this matter but I'm curious could our positions on the subject leave room for a compromise all could accept. If your perspective on same sex marriage is not constitutionally validated, could you accept government not recognizing any marriage as a compromise, assuming of course this wouldn't necessarily be your preferred option?

    This notion about getting government out of marriage is pointless. Marriage is about property (and love of course), and government's main function is property and ownership (land, homes, possessions, wealth, children, etc.) Government can't get out of marriage as long as marriage can be dissolved.

  6. #486
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    Re: Same sex marriage compromise

    Quote Originally Posted by shrubnose View Post
    Libertarians are not all racists, but they advocate laws that make life better for racists and bigots.
    I never said for a second that any libertarians were racists, I just don't think they understand the world around them.

    I doubt that libertarians will ever control the U.S. government.

    I think the chances of them ever being in charge are somewhere between none and none.


    "Tolerance is giving to every other human being every right that you claim for yourself." ~ Robert Green Ingersoll
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  7. #487
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    Re: Same sex marriage compromise

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    I never said for a second that any libertarians were racists, I just don't think they understand the world around them.
    And why is that?
    “Most people do not listen with the intent to understand; they listen with the intent to reply.”
    Stephen R. Covey


  8. #488
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    Re: Same sex marriage compromise

    Quote Originally Posted by Kreton View Post
    And why is that?
    A lot of their positions, and I am speaking in very general terms, are based on wishful thinking, not in demonstrable reality IMO.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  9. #489
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    Re: Same sex marriage compromise

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    A lot of their positions, and I am speaking in very general terms, are based on wishful thinking, not in demonstrable reality IMO.
    An example perhaps?
    “Most people do not listen with the intent to understand; they listen with the intent to reply.”
    Stephen R. Covey


  10. #490
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    Re: Same sex marriage compromise

    Quote Originally Posted by Kreton View Post
    An example perhaps?



    Some of the libertarians on this thread 'think' that they are going to change the 1964 Civil Rights Act.

    Not going to happen.

    Not today, not tomorrow, not ever.

    About thirty years from now whites will be a minority of the U.S. population.

    Think about it.



    "Tolerance is giving to every other human being every right that you claim for yourself." ~ Robert Green Ingersoll

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