View Poll Results: Do a movement's supporters influence the legitimacy of that movement?

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Thread: Do a movement's supporters influence the legitimacy of that movement?

  1. #1
    Sage

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    Do a movement's supporters influence the legitimacy of that movement?

    Do a movement's supporters influence the legitimacy of that movement?

    In other words, if you support the principles, ideals and arguments of a movement, but you find the movement's advocates repulsive, does that affect your willingness to support that movement? Similarly, if you support the arguments, et al. of a movement and you love its supports, does that make you fight for it harder? Even further, if you don't agree with the arguments, et al. of a movement, but you admire and respect its advocates, does that admiration and respect make you reconsider your position or support them in spite of your reservations?

    Example: You are against same sex marriage morally and you support it politically, but you've interacted primarily with militant gay rights activists who castigate anyone who differs with them even a bit. Do those people reduce your willingness to support gay rights?

    Thread inspired, in part, by this one: http://www.debatepolitics.com/gun-co...-you-baby.html

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    Re: Do a movement's supporters influence the legitimacy of that movement?

    The validity of an idea is not affected by the person who holds it. That's basic logic.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Sage
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    Re: Do a movement's supporters influence the legitimacy of that movement?

    Yes. There are issues I sort of support but don't really care that much about that the militant supporters make it very difficult to continue to support. Gay marriage is the perfect example. I am ok with it because it doesn't affect me one way or the other nor would it ever really, but then people here have been up in my grill because I do not see denial of marriage as some great big oppressive thing or think that the harms gays have suffered as a group compare anywhere close to the civil rights struggles of blacks.

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    Re: Do a movement's supporters influence the legitimacy of that movement?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    The validity of an idea is not affected by the person who holds it. That's basic logic.
    On the contrary, it is. The idea can be shaped by the views and intentions of those in control. One's support or opposition to the plan is at least going to be based on the perception of the likely results.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

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    Re: Do a movement's supporters influence the legitimacy of that movement?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    On the contrary, it is. The idea can be shaped by the views and intentions of those in control.
    No, an idea is an idea. It holds up to reason or it doesn't. If it's "shaped," it becomes a different idea.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: Do a movement's supporters influence the legitimacy of that movement?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    No, an idea is an idea. It holds up to reason or it doesn't. If it's "shaped," it becomes a different idea.
    And what of Communism? Does our support of it decline once we see replicated instances of what has occurred as a result of pursuing this-even though you can make the argument that the Soviet Union is not Communism?
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

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    Re: Do a movement's supporters influence the legitimacy of that movement?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    And what of Communism? Does our support of it decline once we see replicated instances of what has occurred as a result of pursuing this-even though you can make the argument that the Soviet Union is not Communism?
    I can't speak for you, but my opposition to it doesn't have anything to do with the individual people involved in it.

    And here you're not even arguing for that. You're referring to the practical effect of it each time it's been tried, which isn't about personalities, but empirical result.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: Do a movement's supporters influence the legitimacy of that movement?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    I can't speak for you, but my opposition to it doesn't have anything to do with the individual people involved in it.

    And here you're not even arguing for that. You're referring to the practical effect of it each time it's been tried, which isn't about personalities, but empirical result.
    The idea of Communism through Marx could have been argued to have been desirable, but the viewpoints and actions of its supporters could have "corrupted" the "true" vision of Communism, creating a "new idea" of Communism-the militaristic totalitarianism distrusted today.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

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    Re: Do a movement's supporters influence the legitimacy of that movement?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    The idea of Communism through Marx could have been argued to have been desirable, but the viewpoints and actions of its supporters could have "corrupted" the "true" vision of Communism, creating a "new idea" of Communism-the militaristic totalitarianism distrusted today.
    Then you judge the idea as espoused by Marx differently than the idea as espoused by the others. If they're separate ideas, then they're separate ideas.

    In no case is the validity a matter of who holds the idea, though.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: Do a movement's supporters influence the legitimacy of that movement?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Then you judge the idea as espoused by Marx differently than the idea as espoused by the others. If they're separate ideas, then they're separate ideas.

    In no case is the validity a matter of who holds the idea, though.
    The idea has to be implemented, and those who are implementing it are human. The idea frequently becomes filtered through that lens and is shaped by it. It adds another layer to the conversation about the worth of the idea as a result.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

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