View Poll Results: Do a movement's supporters influence the legitimacy of that movement?

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Thread: Do a movement's supporters influence the legitimacy of that movement?

  1. #31
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    Re: Do a movement's supporters influence the legitimacy of that movement?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    I don't know what to say other than what I already have. An idea is valid, or it isn't. That is so no matter who holds or doesn't hold the idea. That is simple logic. To tie the validity of the idea to the person holding it is a basic fallacy.
    No, whether ideas are valid or invalid depends in large measure on the circumstances. Population control makes sense in overpopulated areas. Less densely populated areas...not so valid.
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    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
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    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  2. #32
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    Re: Do a movement's supporters influence the legitimacy of that movement?

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    No, whether ideas are valid or invalid depends in large measure on the circumstances. Population control makes sense in overpopulated areas. Less densely populated areas...not so valid.
    This doesn't speak to anything I said.
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  3. #33
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    Re: Do a movement's supporters influence the legitimacy of that movement?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Hm, that's an interesting question.

    From pure logic and reason, the answer probably should be No... a cause or position is what it is, regardless of the quality or tenor of those supporting it. However we are human beings, and do not operate solely on logic and reason... emotion is a factor, and if the advocates of Position X are such that we find them really disgusting, it will tend to color our perceptions of Position X in most cases.

    It isn't too far fetched to say if one joins in the hypothetical Million Morons March, and looks around and starts wondering "am I the only sane and reasonable person here??" that one might start to question whatever it is the million morons are marching about...
    I think you have some of this right, but I would differ on some things. I think I am just a little more systematic in my approach...

    I do think it is legitimate to consider the character of people who engage in a belief as a temporary measure of the likelihood that a belief is valid. Such a manner of acceptance or rejection of things may even be a longer term alternative to thinking it through yourself, if the matter is not of especial importance.

    But for things that are in high controversy as current affairs, I don't think that considering who believes something is a legitimate way to consider a matter. We do have responsibilities as citizens to our fellow citizens. One of those responsibilities is to be informed and to perform logical analysis of the things with which society is currently contending. Logical fallacies have no legitimate use in this responsibility.

    I do agree with you fully though about joining with a million morons... one should probably question the thoroughness of one's analysis in such a situation
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  4. #34
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    Re: Do a movement's supporters influence the legitimacy of that movement?

    Definitely.
    Exhibit A) Look at the Tea Party. It started as a libertarian minded, grass roots organization that protested all overspending, liberty infringing politicians no matter their party. This is evidenced by the fact that the Tea Party started during Pres Bush the younger's 2nd term, not during Pres Obama's 1st term as is popularly believed. However, as the movement gained momentum, more and more hangers on accumulated. Some examples are Sarah Palin, Michelle Bachmann, and Rick Santorum. All of them gained the "Tea Party" vote or support at one point or another despite the fact that all of them infringe on other's liberty's and/or do not have fiscally conservative roots. This, and some of the racist idiots that show up to the rally's have ruined what began as a peaceful and respectable movement. I still support it because I know what it was and what it still is at it's roots. Plus, I'm not paying to change my username.

    Exhibit B) Environmental groups in general. I am a nature lover. I hunt, fish, hike, etc with my son all the time. I teach him never to kill an animal (including bugs) unless he plans to eat it, it is a threat to him, or it is destroying property that would not be easily repaired (such as a vehicle or house). I severely frown upon trophy hunting and teach him it's wrong. We recycle everything. We grocery shop with re-usable grocery bags. We use cloth diapers. I could go on and on. But, with groups like Greenpeace and PETA, it sets a generally radical and over reaching precedence for a lot of people. A lot of people, especially in the south, associate the save the earth stuff with idiots like that. They marginalize people like me who are not radical but are simply doing what we believe God intended us to do. Take care of the Earth. Despite what many will say or post, peer pressure and the need to fit in are huge factors in stuff like this. If someone feels they will be lumped in with groups such as these for throwing a save the earth bumper sticker on their vehicle or for being anal about recycling, they won't do it. Thats the superficial nation we live in.

    Exhibit C) Christians. Not all of us are gay hating bigots despite the effort to characterize us as such. Do I think gay marriage is right? No. But I don't believe I should force my beliefs upon others through gov't regulation either. I don't hate gay people because they're gay. Gay is not some special sin that is much worse than others. Being gay is a sin (in my opinion) just like any other sin. It doesn't make gay people extra bad people. The fact that I'm not gay doesn't put me in the position to judge someone who is. I do believe a gay person could go to heaven. Anyone, if they honestly ask the Lord for salvation, will be accepted into heaven upon their death. The Bible doesn't say "whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life note; except gay people."
    “Mr. Speaker, I once again find myself compelled to vote against the annual budget resolution for a very simple reason: it makes government bigger.” ― Ron Paul
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  5. #35
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    Re: Do a movement's supporters influence the legitimacy of that movement?

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    Do a movement's supporters influence the legitimacy of that movement?

    In other words, if you support the principles, ideals and arguments of a movement, but you find the movement's advocates repulsive, does that affect your willingness to support that movement? Similarly, if you support the arguments, et al. of a movement and you love its supports, does that make you fight for it harder? Even further, if you don't agree with the arguments, et al. of a movement, but you admire and respect its advocates, does that admiration and respect make you reconsider your position or support them in spite of your reservations?

    Example: You are against same sex marriage morally and you support it politically, but you've interacted primarily with militant gay rights activists who castigate anyone who differs with them even a bit. Do those people reduce your willingness to support gay rights?

    Thread inspired, in part, by this one: http://www.debatepolitics.com/gun-co...-you-baby.html
    Great thread by the way.
    “Mr. Speaker, I once again find myself compelled to vote against the annual budget resolution for a very simple reason: it makes government bigger.” ― Ron Paul
    Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of Liberty. – Thomas Jefferson

  6. #36
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    Re: Do a movement's supporters influence the legitimacy of that movement?

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    Definitely.
    Exhibit A) Look at the Tea Party. It started as a libertarian minded, grass roots organization that protested all overspending, liberty infringing politicians no matter their party. This is evidenced by the fact that the Tea Party started during Pres Bush the younger's 2nd term, not during Pres Obama's 1st term as is popularly believed. However, as the movement gained momentum, more and more hangers on accumulated. Some examples are Sarah Palin, Michelle Bachmann, and Rick Santorum. All of them gained the "Tea Party" vote or support at one point or another despite the fact that all of them infringe on other's liberty's and/or do not have fiscally conservative roots. This, and some of the racist idiots that show up to the rally's have ruined what began as a peaceful and respectable movement. I still support it because I know what it was and what it still is at it's roots. Plus, I'm not paying to change my username.

    Exhibit B) Environmental groups in general. I am a nature lover. I hunt, fish, hike, etc with my son all the time. I teach him never to kill an animal (including bugs) unless he plans to eat it, it is a threat to him, or it is destroying property that would not be easily repaired (such as a vehicle or house). I severely frown upon trophy hunting and teach him it's wrong. We recycle everything. We grocery shop with re-usable grocery bags. We use cloth diapers. I could go on and on. But, with groups like Greenpeace and PETA, it sets a generally radical and over reaching precedence for a lot of people. A lot of people, especially in the south, associate the save the earth stuff with idiots like that. They marginalize people like me who are not radical but are simply doing what we believe God intended us to do. Take care of the Earth. Despite what many will say or post, peer pressure and the need to fit in are huge factors in stuff like this. If someone feels they will be lumped in with groups such as these for throwing a save the earth bumper sticker on their vehicle or for being anal about recycling, they won't do it. Thats the superficial nation we live in.

    Exhibit C) Christians. Not all of us are gay hating bigots despite the effort to characterize us as such. Do I think gay marriage is right? No. But I don't believe I should force my beliefs upon others through gov't regulation either. I don't hate gay people because they're gay. Gay is not some special sin that is much worse than others. Being gay is a sin (in my opinion) just like any other sin. It doesn't make gay people extra bad people. The fact that I'm not gay doesn't put me in the position to judge someone who is. I do believe a gay person could go to heaven. Anyone, if they honestly ask the Lord for salvation, will be accepted into heaven upon their death. The Bible doesn't say "whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life note; except gay people."
    One more thing about PETA: they are against using animals for medical research, even if it is benificial to society

  7. #37
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    Re: Do a movement's supporters influence the legitimacy of that movement?

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    Do a movement's supporters influence the legitimacy of that movement?

    In other words, if you support the principles, ideals and arguments of a movement, but you find the movement's advocates repulsive, does that affect your willingness to support that movement? Similarly, if you support the arguments, et al. of a movement and you love its supports, does that make you fight for it harder? Even further, if you don't agree with the arguments, et al. of a movement, but you admire and respect its advocates, does that admiration and respect make you reconsider your position or support them in spite of your reservations?

    Example: You are against same sex marriage morally and you support it politically, but you've interacted primarily with militant gay rights activists who castigate anyone who differs with them even a bit. Do those people reduce your willingness to support gay rights?

    Thread inspired, in part, by this one: http://www.debatepolitics.com/gun-co...-you-baby.html
    Cheers.

    To summarize my own stance, does it affect the validity of the stance itself? No.

    Does it affect the validity of the movement built around that stance? Yes.

    A position is what it is, and if you have a good reason for holding it, it doesn't matter if someone else has stupid reasons for holding it. But it can definitely steer the movement in the wrong direction, either by extremist implementation or by driving people away from their own cause.

  8. #38
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    Re: Do a movement's supporters influence the legitimacy of that movement?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    This doesn't speak to anything I said.
    It spoke to everything you said
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  9. #39
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    Re: Do a movement's supporters influence the legitimacy of that movement?

    Yeah, the gun issue is actually the one I was thinking of when I saw the thread title. I'm a pretty strong supporter of the right to own guns, and I know most gun control legislation isn't very effective, but I don't join gun advocacy groups like the NRA because of the vocal lunatic fringe associated with them (among other reasons).

    PETA is another good example. I do believe in being kind to animals and treating them well. Even farm animals who are going to be butchered don't need to be abused the way they sometimes are. But again, I refuse to associate myself with the group because of the nutcases who throw paint on fur coats and insist everyone else be a vegan, and break into farms to let the animals out.
    If you build a man a fire, he'll be warm for a day.

    If you set a man on fire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

  10. #40
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    Re: Do a movement's supporters influence the legitimacy of that movement?

    I'm against breathing, because Hitler was for it.
    If you expect people to be rational, you aren't being rational.

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