View Poll Results: Do a movement's supporters influence the legitimacy of that movement?

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Thread: Do a movement's supporters influence the legitimacy of that movement?

  1. #11
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    Re: Do a movement's supporters influence the legitimacy of that movement?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Then you judge the idea as espoused by Marx differently than the idea as espoused by the others. If they're separate ideas, then they're separate ideas.

    In no case is the validity a matter of who holds the idea, though.
    But an idea can be fine on its own. It can be the implementation of the idea by particular people that is the problem.

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    Re: Do a movement's supporters influence the legitimacy of that movement?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    The idea has to be implemented, and those who are implementing it are human. The idea frequently becomes filtered through that lens and is shaped by it. It adds another layer to the conversation about the worth of the idea as a result.
    I don't know what to say other than what I already have. An idea is valid, or it isn't. That is so no matter who holds or doesn't hold the idea. That is simple logic. To tie the validity of the idea to the person holding it is a basic fallacy.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: Do a movement's supporters influence the legitimacy of that movement?

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    Do a movement's supporters influence the legitimacy of that movement?

    In other words, if you support the principles, ideals and arguments of a movement, but you find the movement's advocates repulsive, does that affect your willingness to support that movement? Similarly, if you support the arguments, et al. of a movement and you love its supports, does that make you fight for it harder? Even further, if you don't agree with the arguments, et al. of a movement, but you admire and respect its advocates, does that admiration and respect make you reconsider your position or support them in spite of your reservations?

    Example: You are against same sex marriage morally and you support it politically, but you've interacted primarily with militant gay rights activists who castigate anyone who differs with them even a bit. Do those people reduce your willingness to support gay rights?

    Thread inspired, in part, by this one: http://www.debatepolitics.com/gun-co...-you-baby.html


    Hm, that's an interesting question.

    From pure logic and reason, the answer probably should be No... a cause or position is what it is, regardless of the quality or tenor of those supporting it. However we are human beings, and do not operate solely on logic and reason... emotion is a factor, and if the advocates of Position X are such that we find them really disgusting, it will tend to color our perceptions of Position X in most cases.

    It isn't too far fetched to say if one joins in the hypothetical Million Morons March, and looks around and starts wondering "am I the only sane and reasonable person here??" that one might start to question whatever it is the million morons are marching about...

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    Re: Do a movement's supporters influence the legitimacy of that movement?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    The idea has to be implemented, and those who are implementing it are human. The idea frequently becomes filtered through that lens and is shaped by it. It adds another layer to the conversation about the worth of the idea as a result.
    I've always said that every ideal for humanity is perfect(be it religious, political, etc....) until actual people start trying to implement it. Where all ideas fail, is that they expect everybody to react and behave in an ideal manner.
    "Loyalty only matters when there's a hundred reasons not to be-" Gen. Mattis

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    Re: Do a movement's supporters influence the legitimacy of that movement?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    I don't know what to say other than what I already have. An idea is valid, or it isn't. That is so no matter who holds or doesn't hold the idea. That is simple logic. To tie the validity of the idea to the person holding it is a basic fallacy.
    Ideas that are meant to operate under a human realm frequently do not constrict themselves to simple logic.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

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    Re: Do a movement's supporters influence the legitimacy of that movement?

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    But an idea can be fine on its own. It can be the implementation of the idea by particular people that is the problem.
    That isn't what you were asking about:

    In other words, if you support the principles, ideals and arguments of a movement, but you find the movement's advocates repulsive, does that affect your willingness to support that movement?
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: Do a movement's supporters influence the legitimacy of that movement?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Ideas that are meant to operate under a human realm frequently do not constrict themselves to simple logic.
    It doesn't have anything to do with their logical validity.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: Do a movement's supporters influence the legitimacy of that movement?

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    But an idea can be fine on its own. It can be the implementation of the idea by particular people that is the problem.
    so true. One thing that happens a lot in politics is how perverted an idealistic core can become once it's been taken up by the 'wrong' people. Just look at the tea party. A core ideal of fiscal conservatism and reduced government intrusion in private life was co-opted by wealthy republican interests to motivate religious and poorly informed white people to whatever end was most politically beneficial. I can support the ideals of the tea party, but you wont catch me at a rally or donating to their cause - specifically due to the type of person the movement has come to attract.

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    Re: Do a movement's supporters influence the legitimacy of that movement?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    That isn't what you were asking about:
    That's what you and Fiddy were talking about. I was responding directly to your comment to Fiddy, obviously.

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    Re: Do a movement's supporters influence the legitimacy of that movement?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    It doesn't have anything to do with their logical validity.
    This is why you need to free yourself from your views of logic. If a popular movement of people wanted to increase funds for medical research of my disability, but did so out of a belief that I ought not exist, I would distrust it immediately and not wish to seek it through if the outcome was likely to be shaped by that idea.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

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