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Is the world a better place without Saddam Hussein?

Is the world a better place without Saddam Hussein?


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Your problem is that you don't understand Ms. Pelosi's statement. in reality, she was saying that the admendments from the Republicans were coming so fast that it was impossible to know what was in the HC bill until it passed in the House.

Did you know that the NIE (National Intelligence Estimate) was published just a few days before the vote on the Iraq resolution? There was no time to read the ****ing thing.

Oh come now. (Talking about Iraq) Don't tell me these politicians weren't aware of exactly what would happen when they voted on the resolution. Unless they are COMPLETELY out of touch with their own jobs and the way things work, then they knew. And what of those who vote "present." LOL!
 
Don't give me that tired old phrase, "You just hate Bush" crap, I supported Bush's decision to go into Afghanistan.
Why did you support the decision to go into Afghanistan?
 
Sigh. I'm not going down the Joe Wilson rathole again. Wilson neither learned nor published anything that contradicted a single word of GWB's SOTU "sixteen words." Moreover, as a high profile overt investigator asking direct questions, Wilson was not in a position to provide evidence one way or another about any alleged covert procurement attempt. His entire performance in this affair was that of a self-promoting wannabe, his nose pressed against the glass, desperately seeking high office in a future Dem administration. Sadly for him, he already had a reputation as one of the oiliest, least trustworthy men in Washington, dating from his earlier service on the National Security Council staff.:cool:

Thanks for you incorrect opinion Jack. FYI, Joe Wilson never said he contradicted GWB's SOTU "sixteen words."
 
Thanks for you incorrect opinion Jack. FYI, Joe Wilson never said he contradicted GWB's SOTU "sixteen words."

Nothing in my post was opinion.

I had no idea Wilson was so popular on the left because he supported GWB.
 
The main reason Bush decided to invade Iraq was over WMD.

No, not false.

The main reason Bush decided to invade Iraq was over WMD.

Bush admitted so himself...

"Now, look, I -- part of the reason we went into Iraq -- was -- the main reason we went into Iraq -- at the time was we thought he had weapons of mass destruction. It turns out he didn't, but he had the capacity to make weapons of mass destruction. ~ George Bush, 8.21.2006

The decision to invade preceded the WMD intelligence; it did not follow it. WMD was merely the lowest common denominator to build a coalition.:cool:

Bullxit.

"Bush wanted to remove Saddam, through military action, justified by the conjunction of terrorism and WMD. But the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy." ~ head of MI6
 
You said that's a lie Bush told; if Bush lied, so did others.
Let's replay this for the benefit of those who may have missed it ...

ChrisL: "Saddam wasn't letting UN inspectors in. He acted like a man with something to hide."

Sheik Yerbuti: "Say what?? That's a lie that George Bush told -- that doesn't make it true ..."

Do you see that? The lie which Bush told and you repeated was that Hussein wouldn't let the U.N. inspectors back into Iraq. I proved that was not true by responding with a quote by Hans Blix as he described the unfettered access U.N. inspectors enjoyed since returning to Iraq.

That was a lie Bush told. That is not a lie any Democrat made.

Not one.
 
No, not false.

The main reason Bush decided to invade Iraq was over WMD.

Bush admitted so himself...

"Now, look, I -- part of the reason we went into Iraq -- was -- the main reason we went into Iraq -- at the time was we thought he had weapons of mass destruction. It turns out he didn't, but he had the capacity to make weapons of mass destruction. ~ George Bush, 8.21.2006



Bullxit.

"Bush wanted to remove Saddam, through military action, justified by the conjunction of terrorism and WMD. But the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy." ~ head of MI6

Your Brit quote makes my point. Thank you.
 
Let's replay this for the benefit of those who may have missed it ...

ChrisL: "Saddam wasn't letting UN inspectors in. He acted like a man with something to hide."

Sheik Yerbuti: "Say what?? That's a lie that George Bush told -- that doesn't make it true ..."

Do you see that? The lie which Bush told and you repeated was that Hussein wouldn't let the U.N. inspectors back into Iraq. I proved that was not true by responding with a quote by Hans Blix as he described the unfettered access U.N. inspectors enjoyed since returning to Iraq.

That was a lie Bush told. That is not a lie any Democrat made.

Not one.

I understand that. What I am saying is that he didn't lie. He was given false information too. A LOT of people believed he had WMD (and that INCLUDES dem politicians) because that is what he led everyone to believe. It was SADDAM'S own lies. The CIA was led to believe this information.

The CIA's Mea Culpa on Iraq's Weapons of Mass Destruction | TIME.com

Snip: Bottom line, from the CIA’s point of view: Saddam used to lie about possessing WMD, so we believed he still was.

— When the [U.N. and International Atomic Energy Agency] inspections proved more intrusive than expected, the Iraqi leadership appears to have panicked and made a fateful decision to secretly destroy much of the remaining nondeclared items and eliminate the evidence.

— Clumsy but genuine Iraqi moves toward transparency — significant alterations in their “cheat and retreat” pattern — not only went undetected but instead seemed to confirm that Iraq could and would conceal evidence of proscribed programs.

— We now judge that the Iraqis feared that [Saddam’s son-in-law and Iraqi weapons expert Hussein Kamel Hassan al-Majid] — a critical figure in Iraq’s WMD and [denial and deception] activities — would reveal additional undisclosed information. Iraq decided that further widespread deception and attempts to hold onto extensive WMD programs while under U.N. sanctions was untenable and changed strategic direction by adopting a policy of disclosure and improved cooperation.

— Iraq’s firmly established “cheat and retreat” pattern made it difficult for U.N. inspectors and Western analysts to accept new Iraqi assertions at face value.

— A liability of intelligence analysis is that once a party has been proven to be an effective deceiver, that knowledge becomes a heavy factor in the calculation of the analytical observer.
 
I understand that. What I am saying is that he didn't lie. He was given false information too. A LOT of people believed he had WMD (and that INCLUDES dem politicians) because that is what he led everyone to believe. It was SADDAM'S own lies. The CIA was led to believe this information.

The CIA's Mea Culpa on Iraq's Weapons of Mass Destruction | TIME.com

Snip: Bottom line, from the CIA’s point of view: Saddam used to lie about possessing WMD, so we believed he still was.

— When the [U.N. and International Atomic Energy Agency] inspections proved more intrusive than expected, the Iraqi leadership appears to have panicked and made a fateful decision to secretly destroy much of the remaining nondeclared items and eliminate the evidence.

— Clumsy but genuine Iraqi moves toward transparency — significant alterations in their “cheat and retreat” pattern — not only went undetected but instead seemed to confirm that Iraq could and would conceal evidence of proscribed programs.

— We now judge that the Iraqis feared that [Saddam’s son-in-law and Iraqi weapons expert Hussein Kamel Hassan al-Majid] — a critical figure in Iraq’s WMD and [denial and deception] activities — would reveal additional undisclosed information. Iraq decided that further widespread deception and attempts to hold onto extensive WMD programs while under U.N. sanctions was untenable and changed strategic direction by adopting a policy of disclosure and improved cooperation.

— Iraq’s firmly established “cheat and retreat” pattern made it difficult for U.N. inspectors and Western analysts to accept new Iraqi assertions at face value.

— A liability of intelligence analysis is that once a party has been proven to be an effective deceiver, that knowledge becomes a heavy factor in the calculation of the analytical observer.
Seriously, Chris, can you focus? We're talking about a specific lie that Bush told.

Here it is again ...


Saddam wasn't letting UN inspectors in. He acted like a man with something to hide.

Say what?? That's a lie that George Bush told -- that doesn't make it true ...

Since we arrived in Iraq, we have conducted more than 400 inspections covering more than 300 sites. All inspections were performed without notice, and access was almost always provided promptly. In no case have we seen convincing evidence that the Iraqi side knew in advance that the inspectors were coming.

(washingtonpost.com)
 
Nothing in my post was opinion.

I had no idea Wilson was so popular on the left because he supported GWB.
Wilson didn't refute what Bush said about what British government said, he quite clearly said that in his opinion Bush was exaggerating the threat posed by Iraq. Here are the first two sentences from his NYT op-ed.

Did the Bush administration manipulate intelligence about Saddam Hussein's weapons programs to justify an invasion of Iraq?

Based on my experience with the administration in the months leading up to the war, I have little choice but to conclude that some of the intelligence related to Iraq's nuclear weapons program was twisted to exaggerate the Iraqi threat.​

What I Didn't Find in Africa - New York Times
 
Wilson didn't refute what Bush said about what British government said, he quite clearly said that in his opinion Bush was exaggerating the threat posed by Iraq. Here are the first two sentences from his NYT op-ed.

Did the Bush administration manipulate intelligence about Saddam Hussein's weapons programs to justify an invasion of Iraq?

Based on my experience with the administration in the months leading up to the war, I have little choice but to conclude that some of the intelligence related to Iraq's nuclear weapons program was twisted to exaggerate the Iraqi threat.​

What I Didn't Find in Africa - New York Times

Really?

"Then, in January, President Bush, citing the British dossier, repeated the charges about Iraqi efforts to buy uranium from Africa.

The next day, I reminded a friend at the State Department of my trip and suggested that if the president had been referring to Niger, then his conclusion was not borne out by the facts as I understood them."

GWB's conclusion was not touched upon by Wilson's report.:eek:
 
Really?

"Then, in January, President Bush, citing the British dossier, repeated the charges about Iraqi efforts to buy uranium from Africa.

The next day, I reminded a friend at the State Department of my trip and suggested that if the president had been referring to Niger, then his conclusion was not borne out by the facts as I understood them."

GWB's conclusion was not touched upon by Wilson's report.:eek:

Yes, Really.

Then, in January, President Bush, citing the British dossier, repeated the charges about Iraqi efforts to buy uranium from Africa.

The next day, I reminded a friend at the State Department of my trip and suggested that if the president had been referring to Niger, then his conclusion was not borne out by the facts as I understood them. He replied that perhaps the president was speaking about one of the other three African countries that produce uranium: Gabon, South Africa or Namibia. At the time, I accepted the explanation. I didn't know that in December, a month before the president's address, the State Department had published a fact sheet that mentioned the Niger case.

Those are the facts surrounding my efforts. The vice president's office asked a serious question. I was asked to help formulate the answer. I did so, and I have every confidence that the answer I provided was circulated to the appropriate officials within our government.​
 
Same story, different authoritative government

"Nuri Kamal al-Maliki, the third and last prime minister installed while the United States retained its military presence and political influence, leads an alliance, the State of Law Coalition, that won less than 25 percent of the 19 million votes cast in the last election in 2010. But the ethnic and sectarian splintering of the electorate, and the resulting absence of a coherent opposition, as well as his personal control of the muscular army and police — forces constructed under American tutelage — have allowed him leeway rare for an elected official, in the view of his rivals but also of many Western observers.

A common view is that his leadership has replaced the Saddam era’s Sunni repression of the majority Shiites with the Shiite repression of the minority Sunnis. Sinister earmarks of this, his critics say, are the kind of abuses that filled human rights dossiers under Saddam, and are now carried out by thuggish gangs that have proliferated under Mr. Maliki’s rule. These abuses include kidnappings; assassinations; arbitrary arrests; faceless denunciations, often rooted in personal grudges; secret prisons; torture and disappearances; and dozens of executions, many of people accused of being Sunni extremists, and allowed little in the way of a real defense, according to a report last summer by a special United Nations investigator.

As under Saddam, corruption has been rampant, with accusations abounding against Shiite politicians and warlords, who are said to have siphoned off a major share of Iraq’s $100 billion in revenue from its booming oil sector. The Maliki government’s critics say that has starved efforts to repair and upgrade the schools, sewage systems, power plants and other basic infrastructure the country desperately needs. "

A Decade Later, Stability Eludes Iraq - NYTimes.com


Only difference is US and British oil companies are back in Iraq for the first time since 1973!!!! MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!
 
Yes, Really.

Then, in January, President Bush, citing the British dossier, repeated the charges about Iraqi efforts to buy uranium from Africa.

The next day, I reminded a friend at the State Department of my trip and suggested that if the president had been referring to Niger, then his conclusion was not borne out by the facts as I understood them. He replied that perhaps the president was speaking about one of the other three African countries that produce uranium: Gabon, South Africa or Namibia. At the time, I accepted the explanation. I didn't know that in December, a month before the president's address, the State Department had published a fact sheet that mentioned the Niger case.

Those are the facts surrounding my efforts. The vice president's office asked a serious question. I was asked to help formulate the answer. I did so, and I have every confidence that the answer I provided was circulated to the appropriate officials within our government.​

Thank you for making my point. Nothing in Wilson's report had anything to do with GWB's assertion. The connection between the two was purely made of Wilson's puffery.:cool:
 
Dying Iraq war veteran ashamed of President bush:

 
In regards to your last sentence, why did they vote for the Iraq Resolution then? What did they have to gain?

I have stated previously in this thread that most likely there were a number of factors.

Oil was most likely one, but not the only one.
 
Thank you for making my point. Nothing in Wilson's report had anything to do with GWB's assertion. The connection between the two was purely made of Wilson's puffery.:cool:

Wrong.

My article in the New York Times makes clear that I attributed to myself "a small role in the effort to verify information about Africa's suspected link to Iraq's nonconventional weapons programs." After it became public that there were then Ambassador to Niger, Barbro Owens-Kirkpatrick's report and the report from a four star Marine Corps General, Carleton Fulford, in the files of the U. S. government, I went to great lengths to point out that mine was but one of three reports on the subject. I never claimed to have "debunked" the allegation that Iraq was seeking uranium from Africa. I claimed only that the transaction described in the documents that turned out to be forgeries could not have and did not occur. I did not speak out on the subject until several months after it became evident that what underpinned the assertion in the State of the Union address were those documents, reports of which had sparked Vice President Cheney's original question that led to my trip. The White House must have agreed. The day after my article appeared in the Times a spokesman for the President told the Washington Post that "the sixteen words did not rise to the level of inclusion in the State of the Union."​


Ambassador Joe Wilson's Letter to the Senate Select Intelligence Committee
 
Really?

"Then, in January, President Bush, citing the British dossier, repeated the charges about Iraqi efforts to buy uranium from Africa.

The next day, I reminded a friend at the State Department of my trip and suggested that if the president had been referring to Niger, then his conclusion was not borne out by the facts as I understood them."

GWB's conclusion was not touched upon by Wilson's report.:eek:
Bullxit.

We know it's buyllxit based on the number of people who fell on their swords trying to protect Bush by personally taking responsibility for the 16 words even being in the State of the Union address.

The only part those 16 words that were true was that he was citing British intelligence. The underlying message, that Hussein had recently sought Uranium was completely without merit. Even our own CIA admitted they had looked into that same allegation made by the British but found it inconclusive and had expressed reservations to the British about its veracity.

So to claim that Wilson's findings, which were that Hussein had not sought Uranium as suspected by our intelligence agencies, "was not touched upon by Wilson's report," is grossly misstating that piece of history.
 
Wrong.

My article in the New York Times makes clear that I attributed to myself "a small role in the effort to verify information about Africa's suspected link to Iraq's nonconventional weapons programs." After it became public that there were then Ambassador to Niger, Barbro Owens-Kirkpatrick's report and the report from a four star Marine Corps General, Carleton Fulford, in the files of the U. S. government, I went to great lengths to point out that mine was but one of three reports on the subject. I never claimed to have "debunked" the allegation that Iraq was seeking uranium from Africa. I claimed only that the transaction described in the documents that turned out to be forgeries could not have and did not occur. I did not speak out on the subject until several months after it became evident that what underpinned the assertion in the State of the Union address were those documents, reports of which had sparked Vice President Cheney's original question that led to my trip. The White House must have agreed. The day after my article appeared in the Times a spokesman for the President told the Washington Post that "the sixteen words did not rise to the level of inclusion in the State of the Union."​


Ambassador Joe Wilson's Letter to the Senate Select Intelligence Committee

The "documents that turned out to be forgeries" were never the basis of any claim by anyone. The insertion of them into the discussion was Wilson's egregious contribution to the confusion of the question. Those documents were, however, essential to Wilson's attempt to carve out a putative important role for himself. They were part of his fraud.:cool:
 
Bullxit.

We know it's buyllxit based on the number of people who fell on their swords trying to protect Bush by personally taking responsibility for the 16 words even being in the State of the Union address.

The only part those 16 words that were true was that he was citing British intelligence. The underlying message, that Hussein had recently sought Uranium was completely without merit. Even our own CIA admitted they had looked into that same allegation made by the British but found it inconclusive and had expressed reservations to the British about its veracity.

So to claim that Wilson's findings, which were that Hussein had not sought Uranium as suspected by our intelligence agencies, "was not touched upon by Wilson's report," is grossly misstating that piece of history.

The British report was never refuted and remains HMG's official view to this day. The matter of "falling on their swords" speaks to political hyperventilation and confusion of the period rather than to the facts of the case. GWB's SOTU statement was accurate.:cool:
 
Is the world a better place without Saddam Hussein?


Nightly News | March 19, 2013

Sunnis, Shiites blame US for Iraq’s unrest

"Ten years after the US launched a “shock and awe” campaign toppling Saddam Hussein, the cost of the Iraq War is now estimated to be about $2 trillion -- but the region is far from stable. NBC’s Richard Engel reports." -

Sunnis, Shiites blame US for Iraq
 
Nightly News | March 19, 2013

Sunnis, Shiites blame US for Iraq’s unrest

"Ten years after the US launched a “shock and awe” campaign toppling Saddam Hussein, the cost of the Iraq War is now estimated to be about $2 trillion -- but the region is far from stable. NBC’s Richard Engel reports." -

Sunnis, Shiites blame US for Iraq

I'm trying to remember the last time an Arab leader stood up and said, "Wait! It's our fault. We're responsible for our country and our society."
I can't seem to come up with anything. Darn.:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:
 
The British report was never refuted and remains HMG's official view to this day.
It remains Britain's official view, not the U.S.'s. And even Britain had confessed that their intelligence on Iraq was "seriously flawed" and "incomplete." Our intelligence looked into the same matter and reached a different conclusion than Britain's.

The matter of "falling on their swords" speaks to political hyperventilation and confusion of the period rather than to the facts of the case. GWB's SOTU statement was accurate.:cool:
Again, the only part that was accurate was that he was citing British intelligence. Our own intelligence did not agree with theirs on the matter. The underlying message that Hussein sought Uranium was inaccurate.

And to this day, no one has produced any proof that Hussein had sought Uranium in the time frame Bush claimed.
 
I'm trying to remember the last time an Arab leader stood up and said, "Wait! It's our fault. We're responsible for our country and our society."
I can't seem to come up with anything. Darn.:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

The thread is about whether the world is a better place without Saddam, the people of Iraq are saying the civil unrest is our fault. Whether you think they are better off or not is irrelevant.
 
It remains Britain's official view, not the U.S.'s. And even Britain had confessed that their intelligence on Iraq was "seriously flawed" and "incomplete." Our intelligence looked into the same matter and reached a different conclusion than Britain's.


Again, the only part that was accurate was that he was citing British intelligence. Our own intelligence did not agree with theirs on the matter. The underlying message that Hussein sought Uranium was inaccurate.

And to this day, no one has produced any proof that Hussein had sought Uranium in the time frame Bush claimed.

And no one has produced any proof that he did not. The Brits regard their report as firmly corroborated and all but irrefutable. :cool:
 
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